Finding Friendship and Connection on the Sober Curious Path with Renee and Mara

Jane Ballard (00:02.292)
Hello everybody. Welcome back to mindful sobriety, the podcast. I am your host today, Jane Ballard, and I'm so glad you're here. Today's episode is such a treat because we have some returning guests, our first returning guests for the podcast. They have both come on before individually and shared their inspiring stories. And today they are coming on together to talk a little bit about their

friendship, how it's evolved into something that they never anticipated in the beginning and just how they're supporting each other on this unique path to either living alcohol free or sober curiosity and what that looks like for them. So welcome Renee Adams and Mara DiMauro. I'm so glad you all are here.

Mara DeMauro (00:52.693)
Hello. Yeah. Honored to be here again. you know, on your podcast and of course with Renee too, that's so funny. And I feel like just starting straight away, our friendship is so unique and I'm so grateful for it, but it's funny because a little like fun fact is that my name is Mara Renee.

Renee Adams (00:52.75)
Hi! Hey, hey, hey!

Jane Ballard (00:55.892)
Hello. So just briefly.

Renee Adams (01:00.748)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (01:01.127)
Yes.

Mara DeMauro (01:21.557)
And so, you know, we're even connected that way as well. So it's just, it's just fun to mention that.

Renee Adams (01:21.857)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (01:27.974)
It's meant to be.

Renee Adams (01:30.072)
for

Jane Ballard (01:31.28)
Yeah. Well, just briefly, can you each introduce yourselves, just share kind of where you are in the world and what you're doing, what sober curiosity or sobriety looks like for you?

Renee Adams (01:46.4)
Mara, you want to take it away first? OK.

Mara DeMauro (01:47.925)
Sure, I'll go first. I am calling in from Charleston, South Carolina. And right now I am still on alcohol-free journey and kind of exploring, yeah, just what that means. I feel like my emphasis has shifted from focusing so much

around like alcohol free or sober curiosity into more, playfulness and like that's more so my angle. and I feel like my experience going alcohol free has given me more space to tap into that more freely and openly. And so that's what really gets me excited is, you know,

being playful and silly and weird and kind of embracing those parts of me that I have hidden for so long or felt like I had to hide, especially as a young, a younger person. so it makes sense. You know, here I am the adult that like, doesn't want to grow up because those parts were suppressed when I was younger, you know, like, of course it makes sense, but yeah, excited to, to explore in this space.

Renee Adams (02:57.985)
Hahaha

Jane Ballard (03:05.267)
that.

Well, and you really do exude playfulness. It just in your smile, in your tone of voice, definitely in your website and the pictures that you post. And you're just a delight to interact with. And I've never even met you in person. So we need to make that happen.

Mara DeMauro (03:28.661)
Yes, absolutely. know. I'm just like, I'm just here for a good time. I just want to play guys. Let's do it.

Renee Adams (03:33.472)
Yeah, it's contagious. Yeah, yeah.

Jane Ballard (03:34.674)
Yeah. Well, I bet. Yeah. Well, Renee, tell us a little bit about you.

Renee Adams (03:43.564)
Yes, so Renee Adams here. I'm calling in from Savannah, Georgia. So not too far from Charleston. My journey through sober curiosity, I would say I identify more along the lines of being sober-ish and more on that mindful track, even though this is the longest that I really have gone without having any alcohol. And I continue to find myself

going longer and longer and having longer periods of sobriety or at least alcohol free. And it really has just, yeah, totally. And two, it's like you can't unknow some of the things once you do start down this path of just kind of what alcohol is, what it does to your body, how you feel when you start removing it. It's like why, if I'm not using it,

Jane Ballard (04:19.386)
Mm-hmm. It starts to lose its appeal.

Jane Ballard (04:27.38)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (04:40.59)
to emotionally suppress things anymore? Do I really need it? Probably not. So there's just so many other avenues that I have found that supplement instead of using alcohol. Whether that's going on a walk, I'm super into fitness and movement and I think that's such a big highlight and very important to me. that's kind of like.

Jane Ballard (04:47.667)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (05:07.84)
one, how I found Sober Curiosity and it was actually through our relationship, know, mine and Mar's friendship so we can get into that. yeah, where I am with my Sober Curiosity is, yeah, I'm just trucking along. Like it just feels good. It feels good not to have this as this sort of crutch or chain on my life. And it's just opening avenues that

Jane Ballard (05:22.184)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (05:35.334)
I just didn't think was even possible for me. We having our own podcast, starting a business, still just trying to figure out what it is in life, what my purpose is and how I can help others. Yeah, just same with Mara, just being contagious and trying to have little more fun and not being so serious all the time.

Mara DeMauro (05:46.896)
Bye bye.

Jane Ballard (05:54.034)
Yes, I love it. And I think when I think of you, Renee, and we have gotten to meet in person in Palm Springs back in September. But when I think of you, I think of authenticity and you are so genuine and kind. But it's like you're it's like you have the cool girl energy that's very authentic.

Mara DeMauro (05:56.058)
Hehe

Renee Adams (06:02.968)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (06:11.31)
Thank you.

Mara DeMauro (06:19.797)
Mmm.

Renee Adams (06:21.016)
Thank you. Wow.

Jane Ballard (06:21.894)
and you're just easy to be around and you're so smart. Like intelligence also exudes from you.

Renee Adams (06:29.098)
my gosh, thank you so much. That's why I love this stuff. It's like, you know, we just, especially as women too, it's like when we get together in these sort of like beehives of just like creativity and like empowerment, it just like, my God, like let's fucking go. You know what I mean? It's like, it's amazing.

Jane Ballard (06:42.238)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (06:46.568)
Yes, and lifting each other up and cheering each other on rather than feeling threatened or comparing ourselves or competing. Yeah. Well, tell me a little bit about what initially drew you to each other when you first met.

Renee Adams (06:55.415)
Absolutely.

Mara DeMauro (06:57.833)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (07:05.07)
Yeah, I mean, so we were just talking about this before we hopped on here. So Mar and I have known each other for 11 years now. We met in grad school in Savannah and our friendship just kind of culminated, think, because of our like mindedness behind just being curious and also just like the wellness space of things. So, yeah, we just kept in touch throughout college and

It's kind of funny our story because when Mara decided to become a coach, she actually reached out to me at a time that was so, it was such a synchronicity because at that time in my life, I was trying to get my shit together. And, you know, I was on my own wellness journey of like, okay, I want to do powerlifting. I want to do a competition. I want to get healthier and really stop making excuses.

for maybe drinking too much and being a little more honest with myself. So it was just perfect timing that Mara was doing her coaching program. so through our friendship and through the timing and just like her going into something that was brand new to and taking a chance on me with that, that's how I found Sober Curiosity. And now...

Jane Ballard (08:12.222)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Adams (08:32.482)
We've got our own course and we're doing our podcast together. So it's been just a really crazy ride that we find ourselves here after meeting that first day and having a couple of classes together in grad school 11 years ago.

Jane Ballard (08:39.912)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (08:47.704)
Yes, like you just never know what's possible and you know where one little decision is going to take you.

Mara DeMauro (08:49.13)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (08:57.895)
Yeah, absolutely. And, know, I I, we were talking about this too, just how we just kind of inherently plant seeds as we go through our life. And we never know where or when one will sprout. And, you know, mine and Renee's friendship is just one example of that. And I can tell you, have several.

of those examples, you know, that I can just think of, and I'm sure you all can think of too, of just, you know, we, we inspire each other, you know, but it's like kind of not trying to do that so intentionally, you know, not having an expectation around how or when, you know, it's just like, just let things happen. And this is seriously an example of didn't never, never anticipated this would be what transpires.

Jane Ballard (09:43.284)
pushing it.

Mara DeMauro (09:54.901)
You know, Renee and I, we've reminisced about her coming to Charleston and we're just like drinking loads and walking around downtown and just being obnoxious, which like had its, its time and it was fun and all of those things. It's okay. And then, but also as we moved through life, we were just like, Wanted to go like, you know, more on the route of

inner exploration and self discovery and wellness. So of course, examining our relationship with alcohol was a part of that. And I'll never forget, I went to a, a wedding, totally sober and that was my first time I've ever attended a wedding sober. And I think I made a real, on Instagram and Renee was like, what, this is so cool or something. And then.

Renee Adams (10:47.566)
Yes, I was like, how did you do that? Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (10:48.405)
That kind of transpired the conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (10:52.678)
And that was a little seed that you planted that like, look how much fun I had on this wedding, at this wedding and had not a drop of alcohol.

Mara DeMauro (11:00.403)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (11:01.454)
God, I just remember watching it and being like, well, one, it's Mara, who's my friend, who, as she just talked about, we would go out drinking, especially in college too. And she's known me through different stages as well, my life. And so I'm sitting here looking at this being like, holy shit, how did she do that? And it looked so just like freeing to me. She looked so just like...

Jane Ballard (11:22.865)
you

Jane Ballard (11:29.576)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (11:31.32)
having fun, and a part of that to me too was like not giving a shit what other people thought, which was very big for me as like a recovering people pleaser and continuing to work on that. So just like showing up 100 % like her and it was her first time doing something and sharing just the vulnerability behind it and being like, know, I'm doing this for me. I don't really care about anybody else. And so for me, I was like, wow.

Jane Ballard (11:38.962)
Yes, that's.

Jane Ballard (11:44.572)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (11:58.889)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (12:00.418)
This is my friend, someone who I know dearly and she's out here doing this. How can I do that? Because I would admire people who could do something like that because it was unfathomable for me at that point in my life to think about going to an event like that and having zero alcohol.

Jane Ballard (12:23.644)
Yeah, and I think you're right. Like a huge piece is letting go of what other people think. It might feel uncomfortable, but you make the decision to be 100 % yourself regardless of what others might think. And then, and I think before we get to that point, we have to decide that we like ourselves and that we are okay with who we are. And then it's easy to just let go and be like, some people are going to like me, some people aren't.

but I'm gonna go and be playful and have a good time and that's all that matters.

Renee Adams (12:56.118)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (12:57.149)
Yeah. And I, and I think too, again, like even at that wedding, there were multiple people who were like, you're not drinking. And I was like, no, dude. And you know, maybe that was a seed and you know, maybe it wasn't, I don't know, but like you're saying there's always like perspective and different ways to look at something. And I feel like it's almost as if like,

I think we're saying the same things, but when someone says, you know, I don't care what others think. And also you could say like, actually I do, I do care. So that's why I want to show up without my mask and show that, Hey, you can do this too. You know, like I, you know, like if we continue to just be as authentic with ourselves, even if it feels uncomfortable, because it's going to feel uncomfortable. Like I think it's normal to.

Renee Adams (13:40.418)
Mmm.

Jane Ballard (13:52.018)
Yes.

Mara DeMauro (13:55.061)
care what other people think. And it's not a bad thing. That means we're good people, you know, and we care.

Jane Ballard (13:58.088)
Yes.

Renee Adams (13:59.054)
Totally.

Jane Ballard (14:02.642)
Right, that's how our species has survived, you know?

Mara DeMauro (14:05.373)
Right, because we're loving people. But you know, when we really want to like show people that it's okay to be ourselves. And the more that we accept ourselves, like you're saying, Jane, like it shows people they can do the same. And it's this like trickle effect, know, like let's be silly and weird together.

Renee Adams (14:06.157)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (14:15.816)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (14:22.12)
Yes.

Renee Adams (14:22.562)
Right, yeah.

Jane Ballard (14:25.918)
Like not, yes, and not caring doesn't mean it's comfortable. It just means you aren't gonna allow that to control you. You're not attached to it in the same way.

Renee Adams (14:25.922)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (14:38.464)
Exactly. Yeah. And I really equate it to a practice, you know, just like anything else, like when you're going into the gym, if you're starting a new sport, if you're starting something like learning a new language, or when it's a muscle that has not been used before, it's something that's going to take time and it's going to take practice and you kind of have to hone in on your own set of ideals and values and practice when you're going into these situations. Because as what

Jane Ballard (14:43.26)
Yes.

Renee Adams (15:08.098)
you know, what both Mara and Jane, what you guys are saying is, you know, it's okay to have that empathy to want other people to kind of understand where you're coming from. But at the end of the day, you have to answer to yourself.

Jane Ballard (15:21.908)
Absolutely. Yeah, that's so true. So, you know, in this, so we're curiosity, so we're space, we hear a lot about the importance of community and finding a community, which I think early on for people can sound daunting. But I also think not just, yes, community is wonderful and important, but also having just that one person that you can go to and who gets it.

It makes it so much more fun and satisfying. What is that like for y'all to have each other and to kind of speak the same language about how you're choosing to live your lives?

Renee Adams (16:06.316)
Yeah. Mine is a little twofold because not only is Mara a friend of mine, but she's also a mentor. So I kind of get the best of both worlds because she has kind of been a trailblazer for me in setting the example on kind of some things to anticipate, you know, going through this journey. So I think that I've been more of like, what is it called? Like a barnacle or something, you know, it's like when you like attack, like

Jane Ballard (16:26.292)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (16:34.868)
You're like... Barnacle.

Renee Adams (16:35.35)
you know, like attached on to like what her journey is and stuff. So I yeah, I mean, I think it's so important because when you can reach out to someone who you can relate to and who is going through the exact same thing and not maybe having the exact same path, but just these little kind of like tidbits of like, hey, I was in the same situation. This is what I did. Try it out. See if it happens. And then you kind of like

formulate your own sort of trajectory on how you want to live your life. And when you go through these really low points, just having someone there to kind of like pick you back up to keep going, we just need to hear that sometimes because we can get in our own heads so much and just outside noise. so just to have someone there to be like, no, you're good. It's going to be fine. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (17:11.966)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (17:19.092)
Yeah. Yes.

Jane Ballard (17:26.6)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (17:32.274)
Yeah, keep going. You're going to get through this. Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (17:33.365)
Mm.

Renee Adams (17:35.084)
Yeah, super important.

Mara DeMauro (17:36.787)
Yeah. Yeah. I think too, it's so special because, yeah, Renee is a best friend. She's also a mentor to me and we are business partners, you know? it's, it's just like one big circle of so many, yeah, so, so many overlaps and it's just really cool how our connections with people can be.

Jane Ballard (17:47.634)
Ha ha ha!

Jane Ballard (17:53.3)
It's a multifaceted friendship.

Renee Adams (17:53.494)
Yeah, mostly, yeah.

Mara DeMauro (18:05.809)
multifaceted and oftentimes I remember earlier on in undergrad, I remember like going to job interviews and I'd always say like, I'm a lifelong learner and I still really identify with that part of me. And a big part of that is how much I learned through other people and how much I just.

Jane Ballard (18:07.508)
Mm-hmm.

Mara DeMauro (18:31.177)
I'm like getting emotional just thinking about it because like how much I value people in my life because what they show me and like what I get to learn from them. there's, yeah, there's just, Renee is like a huge person in my life that I'm able to learn alongside with. And that's, it's just so.

It's so cool. know, again, it's just like perspective, you know what? Yeah. Everyone's a teacher.

Jane Ballard (19:08.134)
Everyone is a teacher and our friends and the people that we hold dear are mirrors in our lives. We see ourselves reflected back in how they respond to us. And sometimes if we're open to it, we can learn ways that we can grow.

Mara DeMauro (19:26.549)
100%.

Renee Adams (19:26.604)
Yeah, and I think there's like an element of just like up leveling to when you surround yourself with people who one want to learn and want to grow and just want to be the best versions of themselves to give back to this community. And it comes back to that cyclical kind of contagious nature of like when you surround yourself with people who want the best for you and vice versa.

that reciprocal kind of relationship, it is life changing. It is life changing.

Jane Ballard (20:01.294)
It really is. I'm reading a book. The title of it is,

and I always miss his name up. It's like Dacher Keltner or something like that. But he talks about how one of the things that inspires awe in humans is moral beauty. When we see someone behaving in a way that's selfless and self-sacrificial or, you know, put somebody else first and that not only does that inspire awe, but then it inspires others to model that behavior and go do that in their own life.

And it's kind of like, that's what you're talking about. Like you see, this is possible for this close friend of mine. Maybe it's possible for me. And she thinks it is, and I'm going to choose to believe her and go for it.

Renee Adams (20:49.25)
Yeah, yeah. And I really don't think that I could have felt this way or thought that that awe-inspiring aspect coming into my life, I don't think that I could have had that without sober curiosity and how this has unfolded up until this point.

Jane Ballard (21:06.942)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (21:11.388)
Right, just the whole idea of having curiosity and openness and almost like this is an offering or an invitation. It's not a punitive prescription and controlled way that somebody is forcing you into. this is, yeah, this is something that opens up so much opportunity and space for living joyfully, you know?

Mara DeMauro (21:12.132)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Adams (21:29.24)
That is such a good way to put it, yeah.

Renee Adams (21:40.268)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (21:41.693)
Yes, a hundred percent. Also with Renee, it's, it's funny because we, you know, everyone has their strengths and, you know, balance each other out. And it's so funny because when I hear her talk about like, like a trailblazer and this blah, blah, blah. And when I think of, I'm like, what? But when I think of Renee, I'm like, my gosh, she's like so determined. Like, you know, like all the things that.

Jane Ballard (21:42.046)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (22:10.701)
I feel like I can slack on. I see so much in her and I'm like, it's so, I feel so lucky to be able to navigate this journey of life, really curiosity and all of this with someone who does have such moral beauty. She's like the most like, what's the word I'm looking for?

Jane Ballard (22:27.281)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (22:32.878)
Hmm.

Renee Adams (22:36.577)
my gosh, integrity. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (22:36.808)
disciplined and.

Mara DeMauro (22:37.685)
moral, loyal, like integrity, like it's so dialed in. And I really admire her for that.

Renee Adams (22:44.248)
Dude, that...

Jane Ballard (22:46.93)
And that's where the authenticity I think comes in that I picked up on.

Mara DeMauro (22:49.555)
Yeah. Yeah.

Renee Adams (22:51.278)
Oh, that's so funny. It reminds me of a story, Mar. remember when we went to the Dry Fest. It was the first Dry Fest in Charleston and we were sharing a hotel room and she had to bring the dogs with her because she was going on another trip afterwards or whatever. And there's like a pet fee or whatever it is. And we were like, okay, let's just try and sneak a bin or whatever. I was like.

Jane Ballard (23:11.857)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (23:19.022)
was like, I don't know, Mara. I was like, I think I should just, you know, I'll just pay it. It's fine. I'll just pay. I can't handle it. They're going to know. They're going to see on my face. We can't walk through the lobby. Like what if blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was just, it just reminds me of that. Like when you're talking because I'm like.

Jane Ballard (23:23.4)
Let me just pay it, I can't handle the suspense.

Jane Ballard (23:32.276)
Your personalities.

She's like, let's just see what happens. I bet we can do it.

Renee Adams (23:39.054)
about that. Yeah, yeah, I'm like, oh shit. But I, but I love that too, because like, it does push me out of my like, uh, you know, like my comfort zone of like, releasing and relinquishing just the tightness that I am so used to. And that's something that like, I am continuing to work on too. And like, showing more of my playful side and being, you know,

Mara DeMauro (23:41.874)
Exactly.

Jane Ballard (23:43.956)
you

Jane Ballard (23:51.28)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (23:56.499)
Yes.

Renee Adams (24:07.939)
Just like having more fun and just kind of like not being so uptight

Jane Ballard (24:13.564)
It's like you're playfully disciplined. There's flexibility in it. Exactly.

Renee Adams (24:15.638)
Yeah,

Mara DeMauro (24:16.191)
Playfully disciplined. Yes. Got to start somewhere, you know? But it's funny to top that story off. We did not end up paying the extra fee, by the way. I was like, let's just go through the back here.

Renee Adams (24:25.71)
No, he didn't. Let's just go. Yeah, like it'll be fine. yeah. So it was a successful exercise for me.

Jane Ballard (24:26.408)
Good, I was wondering. Yeah, like how much is the fee? I don't know, let's evaluate this.

Mara DeMauro (24:33.897)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (24:37.732)
good exposure to breaking the rules and getting in touch with your inner rebel.

Renee Adams (24:39.382)
Yeah.

Yes, yeah.

Jane Ballard (24:46.854)
I love it. Okay, so what is it like for the two of you? Have you been in any situations that have been tricky to navigate together, like celebrations or social situations or even just like questions? You you get all kinds of questions when people see that maybe you're not drinking in a situation where everyone else is. Like, has anything like that come up or how would you navigate something like that?

Renee Adams (25:14.99)
Mm-mm. Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (25:17.043)
Yeah. So it's funny when you were first starting to ask the question, I thought you were going to go down the route of asking us if we've had to navigate complex situations. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I would like to address what you first brought up, was, you know, in all honesty now, I'm very confident.

Renee Adams (25:27.608)
Yeah, same. Like with each other. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (25:29.014)
between the two of you. Well, you can talk about that too, because that's real life. If you don't have conflict in a relationship, are you being authentic?

Mara DeMauro (25:46.697)
going into a social situation and not drinking alcohol. However, I work with clients who are still going through that phase. And I think, I think we've mentioned it already here. So many things are just a practice, you know, and I always advise like, try, try on a couple of ways, you know, set your intention, you know, do you actually want to go into this space?

And not drink, you know, what do you need to do to support yourself to be able to make that happen? you know, is that telling a couple friends, trusted friends, Hey, I'm really trying to, you know, rock this festival. alcohol free, I have a client going to a music festival this weekend. And that's what she's like, I don't know, you know, so getting lined up, you know, what, what can help you support you through that? And then of course, my favorite thing is always like.

Jane Ballard (26:19.817)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (26:34.398)
You

Mara DeMauro (26:42.429)
speaking things out loud, practicing what you want to say before you actually get in front of the people. How you practice it is how you're going to perform it. And I just really, really believe that to be so helpful for myself. I do that too, not with necessarily the drinking aspect anymore, but with just other things in my life. If I'm nervous about saying something, I'm going to talk it out loud to myself so I can hear myself. You know, does it, does it feel genuine to me? Does it feel right?

Jane Ballard (26:56.531)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (27:10.217)
And that's like my favorite way to navigate those situations.

Jane Ballard (27:10.994)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (27:14.576)
I love that. So it's not like some textbook line that you've canned and are spitting back out. Yes.

Mara DeMauro (27:17.811)
Yeah. Hold on. Let me pull up chat GBT. This is why I am not drinking today. Yeah.

Renee Adams (27:20.878)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like a robot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, to second what Mara is saying, at this point, I have a sense of confidence going into situations with not drinking, but I also think that if you go in as prepared as possible, if that means like having something in the back of your mind with a drink order,

Jane Ballard (27:47.924)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Adams (27:47.956)
that is very helpful. So you're not like at the bar or whatever it is be like, don't know. So like Coke Zero or of course, just like sparkling water with lime because that obviously kind of like looks like alcohol anyways. You know, having that sort of ready on deck or even like looking at the restaurant or if you're going to a bar ahead of time to see if they have mocktails available. I like to do that just

Jane Ballard (27:53.969)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (27:59.188)
That's my go-to. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (28:08.916)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (28:13.792)
in general, because I'm a foodie too, so I like to look at menus and stuff like that ahead of time. Yeah, exactly. And then just try and go in with a plan. If it doesn't work out the way that you expected it to, break that down afterwards and maybe that negative self-talk, see how you can flip that around. If a mistake happens and something happens where you do have a drink, when you didn't want to,

Jane Ballard (28:17.604)
Yes, get excited about it.

Renee Adams (28:42.758)
use that as a data point. It's an experiment, but also be honest with yourself. okay, did you just give in because you felt uncomfortable? Okay, well, then next time you really need to try again and not drink anything. just using, yeah, right, exactly. So I think just using it as an experiment and as a data point so that there's a little more fluidity behind figuring out what

Jane Ballard (28:44.882)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (28:58.398)
Like let's work on your tolerance to discomfort.

Renee Adams (29:11.456)
it means to you and what removing alcohol or your relationship with alcohol, how that looks like for you. Cause it's going to be different for everybody. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (29:18.002)
Yeah, true. I like to, go ahead, sorry.

Mara DeMauro (29:20.565)
Question. I have a question for you guys. So, because I feel, I love this concept, right? Of collect data, be fluid about it, be experimental. Like that's definitely my angle. I'm never gonna tell someone, no, you can't do that. Like, cause that doesn't work anyway, like whatever. Right. So, you know, I, I'm working with someone and they are expressing.

Jane Ballard (29:39.41)
Yeah, we make our own choices, yeah.

Mara DeMauro (29:49.801)
You know, okay, I've been experimental. I've been experimental, but I can't stick to it. I can't do it. can't do it. You know, so, and I can feel their like fear building, you know, within them, they're afraid to let themselves down again. And I'm really curious what you all think about that or how, how you typically help people who are kind of keep facing that block.

Renee Adams (29:55.47)
Mmm.

Renee Adams (30:20.622)
Mm.

Jane Ballard (30:21.492)
So when they're experimental and it's not working, does that mean they drink more than intended? Okay. So I would say that's multiple data points indicating that maybe moderation isn't a good option.

Renee Adams (30:29.198)
Mmm.

Mara DeMauro (30:36.113)
Right. Exactly. how, and they have come to that conclusion. Right? Like we understand that's, we got that. However, to actually not do that, you know, like it's wild because it's really, it just comes down to, in my opinion, it's like, it's your choice. It's your choice. Like I can't not, not do it for you.

Jane Ballard (30:41.177)
That conclusion. We got that.

Renee Adams (30:41.898)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (30:49.866)
Mmm. Yeah.

Renee Adams (30:58.358)
It's your choice. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (31:01.268)
I'm having a thought that's like, so in therapy, when you're working with somebody with anxiety, one potential treatment is exposure to the things that cause the anxiety, but you create a ladder and you start at the bottom with very minimally anxiety inducing exposures and you work your way up as you develop tolerance. Maybe they are putting themselves in too intensely.

Renee Adams (31:02.871)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (31:24.959)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (31:29.788)
tempting situations and they need to pull back from those for a season to get some more time and some more tolerance and some more skills under their belt and then try them again.

Renee Adams (31:30.134)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (31:31.317)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Renee Adams (31:41.334)
Yeah, that's what I was going to suggest is like removing themselves from the situations that are triggering them to repeat those behaviors. But that also means taking the step of like not having it in the house and not having it ready available, readily available and trying to at least at this point to like replace it maybe with something else like going for a walk or like when that craving comes on.

Mara DeMauro (31:41.682)
Nah.

Mara DeMauro (31:51.677)
Yeah, and that's

Renee Adams (32:09.048)
checking in with the body, making sure they've eaten, making sure they've had protein, or just literally redirecting at this point in time and going for a walk or something.

Jane Ballard (32:18.771)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (32:19.187)
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it's funny kind of what we got to the point. You know, I feel like this is kind of evolving now into.

They were like, yes, sometimes you need to take a season. Yo, if you're super triggered by being around friends who are drinking, maybe going to a bar at this time isn't a great idea. However, it's just so interesting because when you really get into this, there's so many layers of, well, but now I feel isolated at home. I don't have friends. Who am I hanging out with?

And it comes down to, feel like it's just really hard for people who do have to choose all or nothing. It's, you know, and I have a lot of empathy there because so much of our society is centered around having alcohol, some part of our gatherings or, or whatever it's, it's everywhere. and so, you know, it brings me back to that question of

Renee Adams (33:03.15)
Mmm.

Jane Ballard (33:15.016)
Yes, our culture.

Renee Adams (33:15.896)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (33:25.333)
for those folks who aren't able to drink moderately because it is an addictive substance, you know, first of all, like there's nothing wrong with that. Exactly. Does someone really have to go through a quote unquote rock bottom or like, you know, everyone has this different kind of tipping point to where they're truly like, okay, I'm gonna sacrifice like,

Jane Ballard (33:34.004)
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. That's what it's designed to do to make you want more.

Renee Adams (33:34.05)
Yeah. Yeah.

Renee Adams (33:38.699)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (33:55.797)
feeling like I don't have friends in this moment, you know, to, yeah. And it's just so much because I'm like, gosh, like, it's just, like Renee was saying, it's different for everyone. And it's...

Jane Ballard (33:59.526)
I'm willing to experience this.

Renee Adams (34:10.659)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (34:10.884)
And there's probably grief and disappointment that it's not as easy as this person maybe hoped it would be or saw other people doing it with relative ease, but it's been more difficult and that's hard. I mean, that sucks and it's frustrating and that grief is valid.

Mara DeMauro (34:17.918)
Yes.

Mara DeMauro (34:27.347)
Yeah, that grief piece.

Renee Adams (34:27.564)
Yeah. Yeah, I think the number one, the number one thing that I hope that people take away from this is the willingness to keep trying, to keep trying until something sticks because the odds are in your favor to the amount of times that you keep trying, one of these times something is going to happen where it sticks for you.

Jane Ballard (34:38.909)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (34:54.296)
but the willingness to keep pushing through and to keep trying no matter what. And I'm not saying that with, you know, knowing that that is not easy. It is a lot harder than just sitting here and saying, keep going. I get that. I've been through my own.

Jane Ballard (35:08.658)
Yeah, and we're talking about the lovely parts of being on the other side of this, but it's still hard sometimes. And it was definitely harder early on and everybody's journey is different. And yeah, it's you got to be willing. Yes. And you got to be willing to go through the hard because there's a payoff. There's reason for the hard. There's purpose. And it's it's not for nothing.

Renee Adams (35:23.106)
Yeah, and cravings still pop up for me, you know?

Renee Adams (35:37.28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (35:37.981)
Yeah. It's funny. I was at a talk this morning here in Charleston and the woman speaking, she's amazing. And she said something like, people are, I think they want or need clarity, but it's trust that people are really wanting to feel. And that just like that clicked with me on so many levels because I talk so much about this sober curious journey, how it brings you clarity, da da da.

And I'm like, hold on, that is so true. Yes, it brings you clarity, but it's the trust piece that's, that really makes me anyway, feel like, okay. Like I'm, this is what I should be doing or I am where I should be. And okay, I'm not, I'm choosing not to go to the bar today and that sucks. And this grief in this moment sucks, but I trust that there is something, you know, more rewarding at the, over this hurdle.

Renee Adams (36:12.748)
Hmm.

Jane Ballard (36:32.326)
on the other side. Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (36:35.197)
And so I just thought that was really beautiful.

Renee Adams (36:35.523)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (36:38.3)
And it also highlights the difference between clarity and certainty. I think that we want absolute certainty, but we won't have that. We'll have clarity of like, this is the path, but we don't know where that path leads with 100 % certainty, but we have to have the trust that it will lead somewhere fruitful and somewhere where we aren't going to regret going.

Renee Adams (36:43.384)
Hmm.

Renee Adams (37:01.292)
Yeah, and that also makes me think of something Mara for your client too in particular is following that trust all the way through. So you are regaining trust with yourself because of all the times that you've gone into situations and you have quote unquote disappointed yourself and you haven't followed through with whatever it is or that intention that you set for yourself. So it's building yourself up to follow through with that with trusting yourself that you're going to do.

Mara DeMauro (37:28.533)
Hmm.

Jane Ballard (37:29.474)
that's so good. You rebuild trust with yourself. That's so good. So.

Renee Adams (37:30.144)
what you say you're gonna do.

Jane Ballard (37:40.336)
Are there any kinds of rituals or practices or things in your life that keep you on this path? Not just this path in regards to your relationship with alcohol, but this path of personal growth and self-inquiry and well-being?

Renee Adams (38:00.45)
Yeah, I I think it goes back to what Mara was explaining of this continued learning and with continued learning comes continued growth. And just looking and reflecting back on just my life and what got me here so far, it gets me excited about what the opportunities may lead to and the people that I connect with and where that's going to bring me so that when I am

80 or 90 years old and I'm looking back on my life, I'm like, wow, it has been a wild ride. So I think just being open to new opportunities and getting yourself out there and meeting people and doing things even though you are afraid to do them is kind of what keeps me going.

Jane Ballard (38:49.404)
it's an adventure and even if it's uncomfortable, it's gonna be beautiful and satisfying.

Renee Adams (38:50.701)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (38:55.957)
Yeah. And I think too, for me, I, something that I'm like grappling with right now is, you know, I've always loved people so much and care and kind of wanting to help and like all this stuff and really in this kind of growth, quote unquote, growth mindset. And which I think is so awesome. And sometimes I'm like, Whoa, hold up. Like, I just want to be like,

Renee Adams (38:56.493)
Yes.

Mara DeMauro (39:25.821)
I don't always want to have to have these like heavy, emotional, big conversations about growth and how I'm looking at my shadow side. I'm like, dude, sometimes I just need to dial it back. Yeah, I just want to serve. I want to play a little bit, but also I want to, that obviously that side is really important to me too. So I'm always trying to find that balance there.

Renee Adams (39:39.118)
just want to go surf.

Jane Ballard (39:40.946)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (39:55.343)
And, and that maybe healing doesn't have to be this like heavy thing and that there are so many paths, quote unquote, to healing. so yeah, just, it's just something that, I've been thinking about a lot lately.

Jane Ballard (40:13.682)
Yeah, that's a really good point. Like it's not about looking at your darkness all the time. It's kind of like looking at the sun. Like you take a peek at it and then you look away because it hurts. And we take a peek at our shadow selves and we get some data and we process that and work through it. And then we let ourselves be and be playful and focus on our light and the fruit of looking at our shadow. And then maybe we get some more energy and we take another peek.

Mara DeMauro (40:23.657)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Adams (40:23.982)
Mmm.

Jane Ballard (40:40.296)
But I think you're right, like we can't just sit in this heaviness and this like deep, I'm gonna look at every traumatic thing that's ever happened to me and go into that place. That's hard.

Renee Adams (40:50.636)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (40:51.475)
Yeah. And I mean, if I'm completely honest, I feel like there was a time in my life where I kind of, not consciously, of course, but maybe subconsciously kind of got addicted to those heavier thoughts, you know, the trauma I've gone through and. Which it served its purpose, right? I needed to process and had to do that. but now kind of looking at it from different perspectives of.

Hold on, because we're learning so much about neuroplasticity and all this stuff. So I'm like, wait, if I keep revisiting these trauma points over and over, what's actually happening there?

Renee Adams (41:32.206)
Mm.

Jane Ballard (41:32.488)
What neural pathways are you creating?

Renee Adams (41:35.241)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (41:35.439)
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'm just a little experimental right now.

Jane Ballard (41:42.11)
I like that.

Renee Adams (41:43.434)
Yeah. Yeah. It also reminds me too of something my grandma tells me whenever I call her. She's like, have you visited your four houses yet today? And that's like, I believe it's an Indian type of proverb of like visiting your four houses every day, which is spiritual, creativity, physical. And then I think the last one is maybe mental or something like that.

Mara DeMauro (42:09.481)
Hmm.

Renee Adams (42:10.24)
or I guess it's the four rooms, sorry, the four rooms and making sure that you're visiting one of those rooms every single day to have the sort of holistic well-being instead of just maybe sitting in that one room for the entire time.

Jane Ballard (42:23.782)
I love that. It's like having balance.

Mara DeMauro (42:25.333)
I love that.

Renee Adams (42:27.917)
Yeah.

Mara DeMauro (42:28.681)
Yeah. Yeah. I think too, like this, like you, you brought up Jane, any rituals or things that you do. And kind of my goal is to, I hate to even put, use that term on something that I'm trying to explain that is about easefulness and not being resistant to what is, but allowing things to kind of be and allowing them to unfold.

Jane Ballard (42:50.484)
You

Renee Adams (42:50.702)
Yeah

Jane Ballard (42:52.98)
you

Mara DeMauro (42:58.485)
I always feel like.

Mara DeMauro (43:03.509)
making juice or eating fruit is something that is so calming and fluid and hydrating and easeful that it allows me to kind of go into that space of less resistance. And that's not to say to ignore things that are important to address by any means, I think, but it's...

Jane Ballard (43:04.244)
It's your in.

Renee Adams (43:06.112)
yeah.

Jane Ballard (43:20.935)
Ooh, I like that.

Mara DeMauro (43:29.789)
It's accepting what is and allowing it to be and getting on with your life. so using fruit and making juices and being outside and breathing fresh air are kind of the things that really helped me get into that state of mind.

Jane Ballard (43:48.196)
like an anchor to the present moment and to creation and the recognition that we are we're a part of that.

Mara DeMauro (43:57.833)
Yes.

Renee Adams (43:57.954)
Yeah, totally.

Jane Ballard (44:01.702)
Well, it has been so much fun getting to visit with y'all. Tell me, how can listeners find each of you?

Renee Adams (44:10.572)
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Coach underscore Radams and you can also visit my website. It's reneeadamscoaching.com. We also have our own podcast called Nose Dive. So if you have any feedback or questions or any topics that you'd like for us to cover, you can email us at nosedivethepod at gmail.com.

Jane Ballard (44:33.734)
Awesome. Mara, how about you?

Mara DeMauro (44:34.983)
Awesome. Yeah. You can find me on Instagram at Mara DiMaro and at my website maradimaro.com and yeah, join us on the convo on the Nosedive podcast where we're just all about exploring curiosity and playfulness and just go in head first. Let's go into it, baby.

Renee Adams (44:48.078)
Yeah.

Renee Adams (44:56.322)
Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Jane.

Jane Ballard (44:58.834)
Y'all are a dynamic duo. Yes, you're welcome. Thank you all. It has been fun.

Mara DeMauro (44:59.157)
Yeah, thank you, Jane.

Renee Adams (45:03.118)
This has been so fun.