S1 E39 Katie Butler, Retired Party Girl Turned Creator of Alcohol Free in Dally Inspires AF Glamour, Fitness and Fun

Jane (00:02.474)
Katie, hi, how are you doing?

Katie Butler (00:04.995)
I'm so good, thanks for having me.

Jane (00:07.718)
Yes, I am so glad to have you on today. This is so exciting. I've heard about you for a while and several people were like, you have to meet Katie. And then we finally, our paths crossed a few weeks ago. And so I'm just so happy to get to interview you and hear more about your story.

Katie Butler (00:26.479)
Me too, similarly, I've had people who's like, you have to meet Jane, you have to reach out to Jane, you all would get along so well, you have similar interests and stories, and so I'm so glad that this worked out. And yes, so glad that our paths crossed a couple weeks ago.

Jane (00:36.81)
Yes!

Yes, same. Well, tell me a little bit about how you got started in the alcohol free space.

Katie Butler (00:48.037)
Sure. So I would say I had kind of the typical relationship with alcohol through, know, I was in high school, the girl who never had a sip of alcohol, I went to an all -girls school, was very sheltered. And then I went to college and it went the opposite way where I was like, my gosh, I have all this freedom. And so I was really involved in just the social scene in college and got into this habit of really drinking.

not only three to four times a week, but really it was like five to six days a week and that was considered normal. so, so just, yeah. Mondays, was really Monday, Tuesday, maybe. And then it was like wine Wednesday, Thursday, Thursday. Then you went out Friday and then it was Saturday, like for a football game. And then it was Sunday, fun day. So I was probably pushing it in college, but in college it's considered pretty normal. You know.

Jane (01:19.252)
Yeah, kind of take Sundays off or Mondays maybe.

Jane (01:39.156)
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that it looked culturally normal.

Katie Butler (01:43.195)
very normal. I went to a very social school. you know, it was like what everyone was doing. And then I noticed so I continued that trend of okay, well, when I post grad and in grad school, was like, well, let me just have a drink with dinner five or six nights a week, like it was very normal. But I noticed around the time I was 25. I started having really bad Sunday scaries as anyone would have but they became every

Jane (01:59.413)
Yeah.

Jane (02:11.465)
Yes.

Katie Butler (02:12.741)
day, it started getting to the point where I was really having what I would say depressive episodes after a weekend, and then it would turn into even during the week after one or two drinks. And then it was really getting to the point where I was just a ball of anxiety and really dark way of thinking, even after having one beer after an evening and

Jane (02:33.67)
Yeah.

Jane (02:37.982)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (02:39.183)
The effect it took on my friends and family over the course of that year, think, was, you know, they took notice. It put a lot of my friends and family in a difficult place. And it was really a trip to New York to visit my sister. My sister is two years younger than me. I went to visit her in New York and we went out and we, you know, went out on the town as one does when they go to New York. And I ruined the trip because the next day I woke up at...

Jane (03:02.456)
Yes.

Katie Butler (03:07.481)
two days left, I didn't want to do anything. I was like a shell of myself. I was crying. It was just like a really dark episode. And she turned to me and she was like, I don't think I can be around you when you're drinking. Like, I don't think we should be around each other ever if we're drinking. Yeah. I mean, what are sisters for? Right? So they're there to tell you how it is. Brutal. Yes, brutal. But it's what I needed to hear. And I don't think I would have con...

Jane (03:24.054)
Wow.

Jane (03:29.201)
They're brutal. I have two of them.

Jane (03:34.74)
Yeah, it's the hard truth.

Katie Butler (03:37.697)
Exactly. I don't think I would have reconsidered my relationship with alcohol. I thought about that time cutting back and I knew it was having really negative effects on my mental health and my health in general, but it really took like a close family member to say like, I can't look at you like this. This is not enjoyable for me. And I stopped drinking that day. That day, that day. That was it. That was it. I got on the plane and I was like, you know,

Jane (03:53.502)
Yeah. Yes.

Jane (03:58.676)
Really? That was it?

Katie Butler (04:05.723)
called a friend of mine who had had cut back and they were sober and I downloaded the I am sober app and it really just started as, okay, let me just see how long I can keep this going because I want to feel better. I don't want to feel this way all the time. This like dark, Eeyore, like gloomy cloud around me all the time. And so I stopped and that was October 17th, 2021.

Jane (04:20.116)
Yes.

Jane (04:26.774)
Yes.

Katie Butler (04:35.451)
And so, yeah, I'm almost three years, which is crazy. I can't believe it. It has gone so fast. And I was 27 when I stopped. so I feel like that's an age where, I don't know, not very many, haven't met very many other 27 year olds that have decided sometimes you see it happening in your early 20s, sometimes you see it happening when you're a grown adult, midlife.

Jane (04:35.702)
Wow, okay, so you're coming up on an anniversary.

Jane (04:55.572)
Yes.

Jane (05:02.077)
midlife, yeah.

Katie Butler (05:04.269)
And so it was just a very interesting journey. And I had one friend I could really lean on and they were wonderful. But it's funny, I started getting texts and calls about six months to a year into my alcohol -free lifestyle from friends and family who are like, hey, I have a friend who's really going through something with alcohol or I want to cut back, but I don't know where to start. And I found myself just saying like,

Okay, wish everybody else knew that we all were feeling the same way. And if we all knew we felt the same way, then maybe everyone would feel more comfortable not drinking as much as we do. And so that was the idea. I was I was alcohol free for about 14 to 15 months. And then I started my social media pages. So alcohol free and dally on January 1, 2023.

Jane (05:39.423)
Yes.

Jane (05:46.687)
Yes.

Katie Butler (06:02.819)
as my New Year's resolution. But I was like, the whole point was like, well, maybe if I can just speak to my experience or answer these questions that I'm getting in the shadows and anonymously and put them out there and say, okay, here's what I did. It might, yeah.

Jane (06:02.944)
All right.

Jane (06:19.232)
Yes. Like starting an open conversation. Like let's just have a dialogue here. And like we might all be raising our hands saying, hey, I'm in the same boat.

Katie Butler (06:26.851)
Exactly.

Katie Butler (06:31.131)
100%. And I think that that was that was the goal. And so I just started it. And that's just kind of been the goal the whole time. So with the Instagram and the TikTok, and I've just been really fortunate to have some luck with it. And then people have been responsive. And so I didn't go in and into it with any goal other than to just like say what was in my brain out loud. But it's been great.

Jane (06:47.529)
Mm -hmm.

Jane (06:56.778)
Yes, and to help, I think to help others say me too, you know, not to have this stigma attached to having a negative consequence from alcohol. Like if you put alcohol in a human body, doesn't matter who it is, they will have those symptoms to some degree. You know, the low mood, the lack of

Katie Butler (07:19.012)
Exactly.

Jane (07:23.53)
just joy and effervescence in your personality, kind of the dullness, the anxiety, the overthinking, the sticky mind, all of that stuff. It's a biological consequence.

Katie Butler (07:31.483)
exactly. 100%.

yeah, and I think a lot of, know, it was like a lot of that too, where it's like, okay, I don't want to drink and this is having a really bad effect on me, but I don't feel like I can go be social or like live my life or take part in like these social rituals without it. And it's hard to navigate, especially like I'll get a lot of questions from old sorority sisters or even like messages from

Jane (07:54.324)
Yes.

Katie Butler (08:03.803)
students who are currently going to school in Dallas in college. And that's a lot of like the, of what I see. It's like, okay, I feel like I'm suffering in silence because everyone around me is doing this, but I can't live like this anymore, you know? And so how do you navigate that when it's like such a huge part of the social fabric of what it means to be an 18 to 35 year old, especially if you're not married, you know, things like that. So, yeah.

Jane (08:13.032)
Mm -hmm. It's everywhere.

Jane (08:26.44)
Yes. Yes, if you're on the dating scene, if you're on the apps, if you're going on blind dates, yes. I mean, it takes so much courage. I don't know if I would have been able to do it back in my late 20s, early 30s. I I quit drinking at 42 or 43. I can't even remember now, 43. And so I admire you for having the courage to say, I've had enough.

Katie Butler (08:33.147)
Exactly. Mm hmm. 100%. 100%.

Katie Butler (08:43.662)
I will, yeah.

Katie Butler (08:48.432)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (08:53.605)
You're so sweet. Yeah, I appreciate that. I I will say it's funny what you bring up about the apps, because I was single at the time. And so that was a huge concern for me. I was like, my gosh, how am I gonna navigate dating? Like, because I felt like, and I think there's like a sliver of truth to this. When you say don't drink, everybody assumes like, you're an alcohol.

Jane (08:55.55)
It's not worth it.

Katie Butler (09:22.587)
Like you had like some crazy exactly or like you've hit rock bottom or you've, whatever. And to those who have gone through that, like that's their story. And I, and I appreciate that. But for me, it was like, you know, I had a little bit of a different path, like, and people just assume the worst or put you into a box. And that was scary for me because it's like, okay, I'm about to go. I'm trying to meet people on like a dating app and

Jane (09:22.74)
You're recovering from an addiction. Yeah.

Jane (09:35.978)
Yes.

Jane (09:51.026)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (09:52.027)
Typically the first date is like, hey, do you want to go get a drink? How do you navigate that? And you haven't even met the person, but you have to disclose something very personal about yourself in order to like go on the date. And so that was, that was scary to navigate, but you know, I, I always would just send the message like, Hey, I don't drink alcohol. If that's not what you're looking for, I completely understand. But I wanted you to know before the first date and I did get ghosted a couple of times, but I'm like, that's a way to weed out.

Jane (09:55.444)
Let's go get a drink.

Jane (10:03.861)
Yes.

Katie Butler (10:21.627)
the ones that you don't want, you know? And I was very fortunate about, let's see, I think a little, about a year into my sobriety to meet my current boyfriend who I've been with a couple of years now. And he was like, unfazed and it didn't even, like it didn't even come up on the first date. And so anyway, you you got a, so refreshing. Yeah, and yeah, I don't even think he asked about it.

Jane (10:22.55)
Absolutely. Yes.

Jane (10:41.472)
That's so refreshing. Like alcohol is just a non -issue.

Katie Butler (10:48.9)
and I have my little Diet Coke and he had his little, he's a wine guy, so he had a glass of wine, I think. And it didn't even come up. And so, exactly, exactly. And there were a few people like that, but we got through it. And so anyway, I think that's a question I get a lot too, is how do you date if you're in your mid -20s and...

Jane (10:57.834)
He's not like, hey, why aren't you having wine? Or don't you want to drink?

Katie Butler (11:13.775)
the apps are hard already. Like how do you disclose information about yourself in a way that's not gonna scare somebody off, but also is truthful to who you are. It's not easy. And so I talk a little bit about that. get that question sometimes, but having gone through it, don't envy people who are going through it. It's tough to date in general, but I will say that dating...

Jane (11:15.828)
Yes.

Jane (11:24.629)
Yeah.

Jane (11:35.026)
It's so hard.

Katie Butler (11:38.679)
as a alcohol -free person, have a theory that it makes like first dates are way more effective when you're not drinking, because you actually can decide whether or not you like the person, right?

Jane (11:47.506)
Yes, you have a very clear picture of that person in your mind. It's not distorted.

Katie Butler (11:51.483)
100 % yeah, and then you don't run into like the marathon date problem I that's what I used to do when I was drinking I go on a date and it turned into like a marathon and then you it's way too much way too quick and you do the eight -hour date and you bar hop and then you're like my god, and then you get really nervous. You're like, what did I say or do? So I was like felt in so much more controlled dating without drinking because I was like I have our however long it's gonna last I know exactly how I feel my feelings are very truthful

Jane (12:06.794)
Yes.

Jane (12:17.334)
Yes.

Katie Butler (12:19.579)
I am keenly aware of my surroundings and engaging in much safer behavior. Exactly. 100%. Yes.

Jane (12:23.84)
keeping yourself safe, and even being able to hold your boundaries. When you're drinking, you may go into a date thinking, yeah, this is going to be an hour and a half, two hours tops, and then I'm going to go home and get a good night's sleep and go to work in the morning and feel good. And then it turns into a late night. Yes. And it's almost like with drinking, you lose the ability to fully rely on yourself and to trust yourself.

Katie Butler (12:39.557)
Yeah.

the opposite.

Katie Butler (12:51.449)
Mm -hmm. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. I think not drinking is like the secret cheat code to like effectively dating in your 20s. Like that's, I will die on that hill. I think it's the best way to actually know if you like somebody. Yeah.

Jane (12:52.692)
That's just not a, it's not a good feeling.

Jane (13:02.143)
Yes.

I love that. Yes, like not only can you date without alcohol, but you can actually, it's like your secret weapon to date without alcohol. Yeah, that's awesome. So I wanna circle back a little bit to what you were talking about with this correlation with having these symptoms of depression and anxiety.

Katie Butler (13:13.019)
Exactly. 100%. Yeah.

Jane (13:28.778)
that went along with drinking. Like it sounds like it was pretty clear for you that you were having these discrete episodes and it was linked to having had a drink prior to that.

Katie Butler (13:41.389)
Exactly, yeah. I would say like, something that I think is, that I didn't do enough investigative work about, and I don't think we talk about enough as a society, is just drinking on medication in general. You know, I'm very open. I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression in college. It's something that I have lived with my whole life, as long as I can remember, I was very anxious as a kid.

But I started getting medicated my sophomore year of college on various antidepressants, on SSRIs, yes. And so I'm very open about that. I've been medicated for, I guess it's like 10 years now on different things. And it's been incredibly effective. Like I am so pro doing what you need to do with your medication in order to be successful. But...

Jane (14:17.674)
like an SSRI or something.

Katie Butler (14:38.507)
that whole drinking on an SSRI got kind of glossed over. And I would, a lot of my friends like in college also, you know, were on those medications. Every single one of us drank very heavily on those meds. And knowing what I know now, that's probably one of the worst things you can do is drink on a medication like that. Because it causes, you know, blackouts quicker.

Jane (14:48.598)
All

Jane (15:07.83)
Hmm.

Katie Butler (15:07.885)
It causes just a lot of, you know, it can mess with your medication. And I would argue that it was undoing the work that those medications and my weekly therapy sessions were doing. It was truly dragging me down so deeply. And I think I almost developed like a, I was convinced every time I drink that something really bad was gonna happen. It was almost like this doom of like,

Jane (15:24.288)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Butler (15:36.889)
I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop every time I drank or I would come out of a night of drinking. And it got to the point where I would ask myself, I'm like, what excuse did I give people when I was under the influence to be horrible to me? Because I somehow did something to deserve being treated horribly. And so that's a really bad head space to be in because it makes you second guess all of your friendships.

Jane (15:39.531)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (16:06.477)
all of your relationships, it makes you say like, they're only being nice to me because it's fake. they don't, you know, and so it's like almost this spiral. And then, and that's really where I got in it. And it started happening more and more, even as I drink less and less. So it was really, you know, at first it only happened after I blacked out. And then it only happen after, you know, it start happening after like, okay, I just had like three or four drinks.

Jane (16:26.73)
Yeah.

Jane (16:36.383)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (16:36.575)
But then when it got down to like, was having one drink, you know, I remember vividly like going on in Dallas and I was like, I don't really want to drink. I had like one beer and the next morning it was like a full panic. And it's just this feeling of being completely out of control. And I wasn't living like I was, I was every day was just picking up the pieces from the previous. And when I stopped drinking.

Jane (16:52.468)
Yes.

Jane (16:59.21)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Butler (17:04.281)
I like to say that the highs are just as high, but the lows aren't nearly as low. It's almost like I have all the tools that I learned in therapy, all the tools that were given to me through the medications I were on. It was like, this is how it's supposed to feel. Like I can actually use the tools that me and my therapist have discussed. These SSRIs or medications are doing chemically what they're built to do in my brain because they're not being messed with by another substance.

Jane (17:22.816)
Yes.

Katie Butler (17:32.535)
everything just became more manageable and truly. so, I mean, was, you know, an alcohol is a depressant. And so I was looking back, it's like, okay, no wonder I felt terrible all the time. every, yeah.

Jane (17:35.583)
Right.

Jane (17:41.148)
Absolutely.

Jane (17:45.834)
Yeah, but I love that point that you make that the highs are still just as high, alcohol free, but you don't have the low lows. And it's almost like alcohol, it creates an artificial high and it also creates an artificial low. It distorts our perception so that things seem darker and our fears seem more imminent and more real.

Katie Butler (18:02.085)
Yes.

Katie Butler (18:06.437)
yeah.

Katie Butler (18:09.787)
yeah, I mean, I look back and the only way I can describe it, like when I look back on those years, particularly post, post grad and probably 23 to 26, I was like, I made my life infinitely harder than it needed to be. Like my choices led to me just making it really difficult on myself. and

Jane (18:29.302)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Butler (18:40.601)
I needed to go through that to get where I am now. But you can look at it with fresh eyes when you're a little bit older and a little bit clearer of mind, obviously, and be like, wow, thank goodness I stopped doing that thing because that wasn't living life, right? That was just getting by. And so that's how I really felt. Alcohol truly had such a strong correlation with my mental health and my ability to wake up in the morning and have a good day. It just was such a deterrent to me being able to be successful in my own life.

Jane (18:55.54)
Yes.

Jane (19:04.468)
Yes.

Jane (19:09.108)
Yeah, it's like you're constantly recovering from these increased symptoms rather than growing each day. Yeah, yeah. So tell me a little bit about career and kind of what you do for work and then how you also have this alcohol free and dally account, yes.

Katie Butler (19:16.251)
100%.

Katie Butler (19:30.971)
Sure, of course. So I actually work in the consulting world, which is nothing at all like my alcohol -free TikTok and Instagram, but I was a journalism major in college. So I studied journalism. I started off my studies as creative writing, switched to journalism, had my English minor.

So being creative and being in the digital space, digital marketing was one of my favorite classes. And then I went and ended up getting my grad degree in marketing. So while I use all those tools in my career, I actually work in the consulting space and talent. I recruit tons of college students all over the United States and it's a lot of fun, but it's not using those core fundamental journalism concepts.

I was like, this kind of like feels scratches that itch, you know, of like, here's what I thought I was going to do for a career and I ended up not doing that thing. So I started the TikTok and Instagram and that really fulfills also some of my like career goals, which is really, really nice. But it is, it is a, it's a balance, right? So my career is pretty intense. lot of long hours, a lot of travel.

Jane (20:30.324)
Yes.

Jane (20:37.279)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (20:47.867)
And so I think the way that I've managed to pull it off is I tend to book in my day or try to book in my day. So it's like, I'll wake up and I'm working on maybe alcohol -free and in -dally content or in the afternoon after work, I'll work on that content when I'm in bed, luckily on your phone, I'll just be like lying down and doing it. But I also will say, the reason...

Jane (21:08.19)
Yes.

Katie Butler (21:15.309)
my TikTok and Instagram has been successful is because it feels authentic. Now that's like kind of funny to say is the one who runs it. But it feels authentic. And that is totally because, because I have such long work hours, I do not really plan anything that I post. It's not, I don't have time, right? It's not, if you look, it's like not high production value, right? It's just my phone.

Jane (21:33.339)
Yeah, and you don't have time to perfect it and...

Katie Butler (21:41.625)
There's no fun filters. There's no fun editing. Like it literally is either like pictures of literally what I'm taking pictures of and would any other day or just like, okay, this thought comes into my mind and I'll record it and I'll post it and that's it. And so because of the time constraints with not only like my work responsibilities, but also like my friends and my family, having a life.

Jane (22:04.436)
Yes, having a life.

Katie Butler (22:07.981)
I can't really plan it out too much. And I think that actually has been what has made it successful is feeling like I'm just talking to a friend. it's very, like anyone could do it. And anyone could because it's truly just my phone. Like I don't even have any of the editing tools, right? So it's literally just what is in my brain. But that's what makes it fun.

Jane (22:27.914)
Yes, but people get to see your personality and they get to hear about your experience and it's relatable.

Katie Butler (22:35.067)
Exactly. That's what I think. That's the goal. yeah, it's nice because it's literally just like, okay, what's on my brain today? Like what comes into my brain? then so it feels authentic, but it's also it doesn't become too much of a job. You know, like I enjoy it. I think that if it was, I always say in life, like anytime anything becomes 51 % more like 51 % stressful as compared to 49%.

Jane (22:44.96)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (23:04.451)
not stressful, that's when I have to reevaluate. so I think because I've been able to, the audience expects low production value, I can kind of keep it fun because I think if I had to make it like zhuzh it up anymore, it would become very overwhelming for me. And then I'd have to be like, my God, this feels like too much responsibility. But it's fun to where I always say,

Jane (23:04.468)
Yes.

Jane (23:16.17)
Yeah.

Jane (23:23.924)
Yes.

Katie Butler (23:30.483)
I always encourage those on my team or even people around me, if they find that they are getting overwhelmed by their career, I always say, you have a place or a thing outside of work that you enjoy? And it provides me with a feeling of like, okay, this is mine. I'm working for myself. I'm sure you get this, right? With all of the things that you do, you're like, I did this and it's a way to not have to seek validation. You're not always gonna get that at.

Jane (23:48.523)
Yeah.

Jane (23:51.936)
Absolutely.

Katie Butler (23:59.939)
a big firm, you're not always gonna get that from other things, but I'm like, exactly. But I'm like, this is mine and I can run it how I want and I feel very fulfilled. And so even if things are kind of falling apart or it's very stressful, like I still have this thing that is mine and I'm very proud of. And I feel the same way about like I have really strong fitness goals and that's something else too outside of work where I'm like, okay.

Jane (24:02.966)
from corporate or something like that.

Katie Butler (24:26.691)
Even if everything else, like this is mine, it's up to me, I'm in control of this, it's a goal that I want to achieve, and that helps just make you feel fulfilled outside of work. And so that's, it's been a really nice added bonus of alcohol -free and dally is feeling like I'm in ownership of something outside of my career that I still really enjoy and makes me me in a corporate job. Yeah.

Jane (24:52.042)
your identity isn't all about climbing the corporate ladder. It's about having these goals and these passions and then having a creative outlet to share them with other people. Tell me a little bit about fitness and how that ties into what you do with sober and dally or alcohol -free and dally, sorry.

Katie Butler (25:01.347)
Yes, exactly.

Katie Butler (25:09.059)
Yeah, I, yeah, I know all good. No, a lot of people, some people, so Dali, when you read it, a lot of people think it's alcohol -free daily. And I'm like, yeah, sure, that works too. I'm like, call me whatever, like I'm, as long as we're chit chatting, like good to go. So yeah, so the name isn't super intuitive, but I was going for the rhyme, you know? So for me, fitness has been a really,

Jane (25:19.548)
That works too, yeah.

Jane (25:26.942)
Yes.

Jane (25:31.946)
I like it.

Katie Butler (25:37.497)
wonderful coping mechanism through my sobriety. so I'll say like, back when I was heavily drinking, I was not exercising at all, not in the slightest. I mean, I was hung over a lot, so I didn't want to, I didn't have the energy and I didn't have the motivation. Like I didn't have, I had a very low self -esteem at the time. And so it just like wasn't anything that I felt like I could tackle. But it just so happened that I really, you know,

Jane (25:49.15)
Yeah, you didn't have the energy probably.

Katie Butler (26:07.151)
When you stop drinking, you have a lot of time. not drinking and sobriety truly is a gift of time because you have hours and hours.

Jane (26:16.618)
That is so true. Not just time that you would have spent drinking and partying, but time you would have spent recovering.

Katie Butler (26:23.323)
Wholeheartedly like your Sunday morning you wake up at 8 a That is Probably four to six hours more than you would have and then if you're like enjoying the rest of your day and not hungover That's like, know Sundays used like want a bed rot and you'd order uber eats and you wouldn't do anything all day long And so it's a wasted day. Well, then now you're waking up at 8 a Sober and chipper and you're like, what am I gonna do to fill my time like genuinely?

Jane (26:39.488)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (26:49.805)
And so I was like, all right, well, I have all this energy and I have all this time. I'm gonna go to spin. Like I'm gonna go, I used to spin in college like a little bit, and I liked it, but it never really stuck. It was very sporadic. And so I decided to go back and it really actually became a...

Katie Butler (27:15.427)
church of sorts, I don't use that lightly, but like it really became a place where I can, my phone wasn't there, know, your phone was off, you didn't bring your phone in the room. You can't talk to anybody, right? So because the music was loud and you're on a bike and you're, you know, you're a certain amount of part, the music's going and you're getting instruction. So it was a way for me to be away from my phone, a part of a group of people, but no one was asking about what was going on in my head.

Jane (27:33.194)
Yes.

Jane (27:45.524)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (27:45.837)
And so it was a form of community where I'm like, okay, I'm seeing people. Everyone's generally interested in health. Alcohol isn't present here. I love music and no one can get to me. So it felt like a safe spot during a time where I felt like a lot of things were.

Jane (28:04.501)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (28:08.783)
Like a lot of people asking me if I was okay, a lot of things changing. I was like, okay, when I'm in these four walls, like no one can get to me. And then all the people that I was seeing up there didn't know that I was like going through it. So I'm like, no one's gonna ask me if I'm okay. Like no one's checking. Like they're just gonna treat me like a normal human, not someone who's like having problems with alcohol and trying to get sober. Like no one knows what's going on in my life up here. And I needed that.

Jane (28:16.148)
Yes.

Jane (28:25.736)
Yes.

Jane (28:31.378)
Yeah, and you're all in it together. You're all like your legs are burning and you're out of breath and you have a common goal and you're just in that together and present.

Katie Butler (28:35.982)
Yes.

Exactly. 100%. And so I that is I really got into that. And then something for me to you know, of course, when I was drinking a lot, like, you know, I didn't stop drinking, of course, for any sort of aesthetic goal. But I do think it's okay to have goals in that space. And so, you know, for me, it was a way to get my confidence back.

Jane (28:59.275)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (29:06.861)
as well. So when I was drinking a lot, very swollen, categorically overweight, like sedentary lifestyle. And so it gave me my confidence back because I lost a little bit of weight, I felt more energetic, I was sleeping better. And so when you when you feel better on the outside, you know, that does have an effect on on your brain. Like it really just it just does when you feel good.

Jane (29:34.464)
Absolutely. Yes.

Katie Butler (29:35.769)
Right. And so that was also helpful. was like, well, okay, I'm feeling like I'm getting my mojo back. Like I'm making some sort of like health transformation. and it has been, it has been great. Like, I really think that I struggled a lot with my, body image growing up, struggled a lot, like with eating and different things. And I think it was all wrapped in, you know, it's all wrapped into the mental health thing. Right. And so this was a way. Yeah.

Jane (29:57.183)
Mm

Jane (30:01.981)
Absolutely.

Katie Butler (30:04.443)
So this was a way to feel more confident and feel good about myself and less puffy, less sedentary, felt better on the outside. Exactly.

Jane (30:18.442)
just stronger. It feels good to be strong and fit and mobile and not easily winded. All those things feel so good.

Katie Butler (30:26.34)
Mm -hmm, exactly. so I never went into cycling to pour those things, but those were great side effects. And I would say those are great side effects of stopping to drink alcohol too. I mean, it does have such a huge effect on your body. Like not just your mental health, but like your physical health. Like your skin, your hair, your nails, your ability to sleep.

Jane (30:39.926)
Absolutely.

Jane (30:44.906)
Yeah.

Jane (30:48.246)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Butler (30:54.32)
I'm sure, I'm not no doctor, but I'm sure like how you eat, you digest, how I'm sure it has effect on everything because of the ingredients in there.

Jane (31:01.642)
Yes. And I feel like even people's eyes are clearer and brighter. You know, you just can tell a difference.

Katie Butler (31:06.713)
Yeah, yeah. And I had more motivation to like take care of myself. Like I just was like, okay, like I wanna get up and like put on something cute. Like I wanna be presentable. Like I want to be, you know, not, you know, wear a huge, I still love my XL T -shirts, but like I was living in XL T -shirts and gym shorts because like I didn't wanna wear anything that touched my body, right? Because I was so.

Jane (31:32.617)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (31:34.939)
I was very insecure about how I looked. so, you know, just gaining your mojo back, really, really was helpful to just have time away from my phone, have time away from people who knew what I was going through and just be treated like a normal human. And I had to burn time. Like I had to do something because I had all this time. And so it turned into like an every Sunday morning at 10 a and then I was like, okay, like

Jane (31:53.246)
Yes.

Katie Butler (32:03.311)
Let me maybe go during the week. You know, it's really started out as a weekend thing because weekends, it's like, what do do? Like I didn't know what to do. Right. and so.

Jane (32:08.767)
Yeah.

and if all your friends are still recovering on Sundays, you know.

Katie Butler (32:14.071)
Exactly. Exactly. So that's how it started. And now, now it's like part of my daily routine and I love it. And I used to coach indoor cycling as a result. And so it's been really, really fulfilling to have goals about like how I ride the spin bike. But then about two years ago, I started doing like weightlifting and that's been really neat to embark upon. Yes.

Jane (32:40.02)
I think that's so important for women too, just to prevent muscle loss and bone loss and all the things.

Katie Butler (32:47.511)
100%. Like I am like, you won't get bulky. If you lift weights, you will not get bulky. It's like one of the best things you can do. And like having goals around what I can like deadlift or you know, having goals about what I can bench press or just, you know, all those things like little goals, little wins have been very important. And so it's been great. It's like my favorite thing now. And I don't think I ever would have really gotten into fitness if I had so been drinking because number one, I wouldn't have the time.

Jane (32:50.57)
You will not get bulky.

Jane (33:04.19)
Yes.

Jane (33:11.723)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (33:13.807)
But number two, I just wasn't in the mental head space to be able to get up there and go and make a commitment.

Jane (33:19.678)
Yeah. Well, and it sounds like it took a certain level of confidence to believe you can do that. And maybe you weren't in that space before you quit drinking.

Katie Butler (33:28.378)
Yeah.

I really struggled when I was, you I think we all do to be up in a gym, not looking the part, right? And I think I really dealt with that. Like I was like, like I'm hung over, I'm bloated, I am puffy and I don't look like I belong up here. But I just had to get up there and go. But it was daunting. It was daunting at first, but I would say, fortunately,

Jane (33:39.678)
Mm -hmm.

Jane (33:54.794)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (33:59.107)
all the Dallas gyms I've been to, or like couldn't care less, like what you look like, they want you there. No matter if you're experienced or it's your first time doing any of these things. So that's been really fortunate. Like the Dallas fitness community is really welcoming, I think, and there's a lot of options. So that's to say, I think for anybody, no matter if you are struggling with wanting to be, know, if you're sober curious to like, you just need something to yourself, like go take a spin class, go do.

Jane (34:02.548)
Yes.

Jane (34:15.67)
Absolutely.

Katie Butler (34:27.845)
hot Pilates, go take a weightlifting class. It's like the best thing you can do. It's my favorite thing.

Jane (34:30.218)
Yes, yoga. Yoga is a great kind of thing to add along to being alcohol -free because there's that mind -body connection and breath and yeah. Yes, sit still with your thoughts. Yeah. So one of the things I hear from people a lot is just the importance of finding community in their alcohol -free journey. What was that like for you?

Katie Butler (34:41.155)
Yes, yes, being able to sit still, whoo, that's hard. Exactly.

Katie Butler (35:01.955)
That's a great question. And I think for me, I had to, you know, a lot of people talk about the theory of a third place, right? So you need a place that's not your house and not your work, where you can find community that is fulfilling to you and meet your needs. For me, it wasn't a group like I've had people that I know that I've been in AA, and it's been really important and wonderful for them.

Jane (35:13.462)
Mm -hmm.

Jane (35:29.022)
Right.

Katie Butler (35:29.357)
I never went to a meeting, so that wasn't anything that I pursued, although I have close friends who have, and it's been fantastic. It just wasn't part of, exactly, it just wasn't part of my path. And I think for me, I had to do a really, when I stopped drinking alcohol, I had to make some tough decisions about who I surrounded myself with. I cut off a couple of friends.

Jane (35:37.982)
Yeah, it just wasn't your path.

Jane (35:52.438)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Butler (35:56.067)
I'm not recommending that, like if that's not your journey, but for me, that needed to happen. and for me, it really was, I would say like, I know we just talked about fitness in the gym, but like for me, that's where I poured my heart and time into is really building like a community at where I worked out. And I needed that at the time because those individuals weren't going to ask me how, like what was going on in my life, like in terms of like.

Jane (36:11.605)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (36:24.559)
how's the alcohol -free thing going? It was just like, hey, it's nice to see you. So I, at the time of getting sober, needed people to not ask. Like I needed normalcy. But I think now, I think, so that was really important in my first year of sobriety before I started the TikTok and Instagram. I think now, like with the Alcohol -Free and Dali platform, it's been really awesome to get to,

Jane (36:26.494)
Yeah.

Jane (36:33.494)
You needed some normalcy.

Jane (36:43.894)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Butler (36:53.179)
through events that I happen to have, you we do pop -ups with alcohol -free options all over the place. That's been really neat to meet new people, like, and just have conversations that are really neat. We've done a bunch of pop -ups at like fitness studios around, because that's, to me, like fitness and alcohol -free space, I've been really lucky for them to go hand in hand. So what I've done over the past year or so is like, I'll bring a bunch of non -alcoholic drinks and we'll do a pop -up after like.

Jane (37:05.151)
Yes.

Katie Butler (37:19.917)
spin class or a berries class or a class at cost studios or coast cycle or whatever it is. And that's just a way for people like for us to chit chat. Right. So I'll bring different brands that I've worked with and people can try them. And so, you know, that's been a really also lovely way to make new community because Dallas, as I'm sure you're aware, is, in my opinion, a little bit behind some other cities in terms of alcohol free options. It's gotten so much better.

Jane (37:30.272)
Yeah.

Jane (37:41.065)
Yes.

Jane (37:49.918)
It's gotten so much better in the last couple of years, but there's still growth to be had.

Katie Butler (37:50.352)
But so much better. Yeah.

So growth to be had, but I've been also really lucky through social media to meet sober creators that live in other cities too. So, you know, there's a couple of, well, you Jane, but there's also a couple of sober creators in Austin that are really wonderful. There's sober and funky, her name's Paige, she's great. There's, let's see, there's a sober girls guide also located in Austin.

Jane (38:04.65)
Yes.

Jane (38:08.777)
Hahaha

Jane (38:23.356)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (38:24.517)
There's a bunch in New York, like Grace Adams, Sober in Central Park, like Grace Adams is sober, boring, but there's also like Sober in Central Park, like in Dallas, Madison in Dallas, and all these people I've met through social media. And that's also been really cool to be connected with other people who are really passionate and we're all, know, the alcohol free space or sobriety space, or even like the alcohol free drink space.

Jane (38:33.054)
Yeah.

Jane (38:38.974)
Mm -hmm.

Katie Butler (38:52.153)
is a new space and it's a lot of startups and it's a lot of like small biz, like every non -on bottle shop, you know, beyond the bar here in Dallas, like small biz, like a little guy, love them. Like they do such good work, but it's like small businesses, right? So it's like, we're kind of like this like camaraderie of like, okay, we're all little fish.

Jane (39:00.532)
Yes, I love Beyond the Bar.

Jane (39:07.062)
Absolutely.

Jane (39:11.296)
Well, and it's this counter -cultural movement that we're all a part of and we're all finding each other all over the country. know, the Sober in the Cities movement, like Sober in Dallas, Sober in Seattle, you know, that's been great just to meet people through that.

Katie Butler (39:20.739)
Yes. Yeah.

Katie Butler (39:26.285)
Yeah. And I think that's really nice too. It's cause it's all like, we, we all are, you know, it's new and we're small, big, but small, you know, in the space, like we're, we're, we're not like a Don Julio. Like it's like, you know, there's smaller brands and there's a lot of people starting up in the space and a lot of people doing grassroots stuff and like, you know, really like hustling. And so it's a very supportive environment because everyone's working really hard.

Jane (39:33.332)
Yes.

Jane (39:44.862)
Yes.

Jane (39:51.936)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (39:52.069)
So I think that's a blessing of social media is I guess been able to connect a lot of people who are in this space and it's a new space and it's uncharted territory. everyone's really, yeah.

Jane (40:00.65)
Yes. And it can feel vulnerable and people have a lot of passion about why they're in this space. And I think that makes it special.

Katie Butler (40:08.257)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's been very supportive. You know, I was at first a little nervous because like, you know, I think sometimes not not nearly everybody, but sometimes people want to quantify sobriety and like put rules around it. And I am someone who is sober from alcohol, but I, I do, you know, have a CBD beverage, you know, and to some that's, that's not being sober, right? That doesn't count.

Jane (40:23.252)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Jane (40:34.602)
That doesn't count. Yeah.

Katie Butler (40:36.931)
And so I was a little bit like, like am I, you know, when I started out, was like, okay, I don't drink alcohol, but I like, you know, I like my CBD and you know, whatever it is. And so fortunately everyone's been really, really, really, really welcoming because sometimes you're afraid it's like, am I a poser? am I like, am I following all the rules? You know, and fortunately everyone's been really, really great. So.

Jane (40:49.748)
Yes.

Jane (40:56.063)
Yes.

Jane (41:00.074)
I think that's the beauty of the sober curiosity movement is that everybody defines what works for them. What does their sober curious look like? And it doesn't have to be, I don't ever put any substance of any kind in my body ever again.

Katie Butler (41:10.319)
Mm

Katie Butler (41:17.135)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. So, but it's been great. And so that's, yeah, I would say those two. It's like, when I got started, like really spending a lot of time up at the fitness studios that I was members of or am members of still, that was hugely important for me. But then also just like using social media is so nuanced and can be so bad sometimes, but it also can be a good thing. And in this sense, I think it's been a really wonderful way to connect with people across like people.

Jane (41:41.747)
Yes.

Katie Butler (41:47.095)
in different states and cities and towns, you know?

Jane (41:49.534)
Yes. yeah. I've connected with people all over the world on social media. mean, and I was not a huge social media user before I created my account about a year and a half ago. And it was terrifying to me to put myself out there like that and to open up and talk about my alcohol -free journey. But it's been such a blessing because I've, I've met so many people and some of them I've now met in person. Most of them I haven't, but it, still feels like a genuine connection.

Katie Butler (41:54.459)
Mm

Katie Butler (41:59.259)
Mm

Katie Butler (42:02.403)
Yeah. Yeah.

Katie Butler (42:13.145)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (42:19.419)
Exactly. yeah, I think that's always, know, you will 99 .9 % of the comments in or like engage when I get are extraordinarily positive. And one time my mom like I got one comment one time that was like really annoying. And my mom was like, how do you not let this bother you? Like that would bother me. And I was like, they don't know me, right? Like I'm like, they don't know me. Like they I am curating like what I would want people to know about me on the internet, right? Like

Jane (42:28.756)
Yes.

Katie Butler (42:48.805)
they don't know who I am. And so that's like kind of how I see it. I'm like, they know such a small sliver of who I am because like, know, the other day I had a, heard that someone I was like, Katie's making being alcohol for your whole personality. And I was like, okay, that's a really weird thing to say because like it's a positive thing. Like, okay. But I'm like,

Jane (42:48.863)
Yeah.

Jane (43:08.803)
Yeah. Seriously.

Katie Butler (43:16.409)
You know, anyone, I think this goes for anyone who's alcohol free or anyone who's sober. It's like, that is just one small piece of the pie of what makes you you. And while it can be an important part of your identity, like everyone's so nuanced. And I'm like, you know, there's the Katie who loves indoor cycling. There's a Katie that works a really hard job. There's the Katie that went and got her MBA. There's the Katie who's the girlfriend. There's the Katie who's the daughter.

Jane (43:26.335)
Yes.

Jane (43:33.203)
Absolutely.

Katie Butler (43:45.061)
There's a Katie who likes to watch Law and Order SVU every day. You know, like there's so many pieces and I think a lot of times people are afraid to be like, I'm sober because it's like a label that is all enveloping sometimes. And I think everyone's getting a lot better about that. But I think that's what people are afraid of is that it becomes your whole identity and it doesn't. It's like a small slice of who you are as such a nuanced person. I'm sure you've...

Jane (43:48.713)
Yes.

Jane (43:58.069)
Right.

Yes, absolutely.

Jane (44:10.758)
Absolutely.

Katie Butler (44:12.527)
felt that too. It's like you're like, this is such a small part of all the wonderful things I do at work. This is such a small part of, I mean, you do so much too. And like at your clinic, you offer so many services, you host retreats. Like there's so many nuanced parts, right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Jane (44:17.02)
Yes.

Jane (44:22.772)
Yeah, yes, I'm raising three children. have a husband and a house and all sorts of things that I'm managing in life. And I feel like being alcohol -free just makes all of those things a lot simpler. And I have so much more energy and clarity to do those things. It enables me to be a better version of myself.

Katie Butler (44:43.236)
It makes you better. Yeah. It makes all those other parts of you shine. That's what I wholeheartedly like. I think all those other parts of me that I just called out were so dulled when I was drinking. those weren't showing. And so now exactly. so like now that it's yeah, now that I'm alcohol free, I can enjoy all these other parts of who I am.

Jane (44:51.062)
Absolutely.

Jane (44:58.506)
Yes. Yeah, just kind of getting through the day and surviving and.

Katie Butler (45:11.491)
So yeah, anyway, I just, I don't know. I feel that very strongly. It's like, okay, this is a good thing. Let's not knock one another, but also like, it's just a small slice of the pie.

Jane (45:11.51)
Yeah.

Jane (45:18.742)
Absolutely. So if you were to give some advice to your 20 year old self, knowing what you know now, almost three years into alcohol free life, what would you tell 20 year old Katie?

Katie Butler (45:41.395)
that's a really good question. Well, number like the silly answer is don't drink on your meds. But I think the most the more the bigger answer or like the more serious answer would be you don't have to make it so hard on yourself. Right? Like, like, like, there are not every part of life has to be so heavy. Like, and

Jane (45:48.017)
Yeah.

Jane (46:01.077)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (46:11.533)
Yeah, I would say like

Yeah, I think I talked about this earlier. I I tended to make life lot harder on myself through my choices, whether it be with alcohol or who I chose to surround myself with or how I decided to handle it just even day to day situations like, like, you can take part in your own happiness. If you don't like something, you have the power to change it. And I think at the time that

Jane (46:40.085)
Yes.

Katie Butler (46:42.587)
took me a long time to understand that you weren't bound to any job, relationship, friendship, circumstance. Like you do actually have the power to change your circumstances. I just wish it, you

I think I'm both very early and very old, know, very early to have adopted sobriety, but also I felt late at the same time. And I was like, wow, like there's a lot of years that I could have been a lot happier. But then again, I'm like, okay, I did figure it out. So, but there was meaning in it. Yeah. But yeah, I think, I think that's it. I think I would say like, you have the power.

Jane (47:20.18)
Yes, there was meaning in that experience that brought you to where you are now.

Katie Butler (47:31.983)
to change your circumstances, you're not stuck anywhere. And it's not supposed to be so hard all the time. We're so grim, so dark all the time.

Jane (47:40.438)
Yeah, yeah. It's like feeling like you're in this cage, but what you don't realize is the door is open and you can walk out of the cage at any point.

Katie Butler (47:51.575)
Exactly. You have more autonomy over your day in your life than you think that you do. Yeah. And that was a lesson to learn.

Jane (47:58.334)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that part of it is that you have to be willing to risk losing the things you're attached to in order to have that freedom. Like maybe you're not following the social norms or you're willing to risk losing the friendship or you're willing to let people talk about you in order to have this freedom.

Katie Butler (48:12.121)
Yeah. It's like the sunk cost fallacy. Yeah.

Katie Butler (48:19.854)
Yeah.

Katie Butler (48:23.343)
Yeah, I think it's like, what did they say? It's like the sunk cost fallacy. was like, if you invest all this time and energy, you're like, okay, I gotta keep doing this because I've spent so much time and energy doing this. I have to try and keep making it work. I have to make it work. Exactly. And like, I remember I was doing that and I was like, I've invested so much time in these friendships and relationships and in this job. Like I'm miserable, but I've sacrificed so much time and energy. I gotta keep trying to make it work.

Jane (48:33.588)
Yes.

have to make it work, then what will it mean if it doesn't?

Jane (48:52.382)
Yes.

Katie Butler (48:52.687)
when the decision should have been to walk away or change or move or whatever it was. And so, yeah, I would say that sunk cost fallacy of life. Like don't get so far into something that you just are, yeah, and you're just still investing in this thing that's never gonna work.

Jane (49:04.874)
That's good.

Jane (49:08.776)
You think you can't turn back because you put too much time in, but it's like.

Jane (49:15.21)
Yes, yeah. And you know, I think we forget that we get to change our mind, we get to change our viewpoints, we get to change our lives and how we live our lives and our values anytime.

Katie Butler (49:27.607)
Exactly. You hit the nail on the head.

Jane (49:30.762)
Well, Katie, thank you so much. It has been just delightful to get to talk with you more and you have an event coming up in September that I am coming to. can't wait. It's the Sober Girl Walks. Is that what it's called?

Katie Butler (49:33.563)
Bye.

Bye.

Katie Butler (49:39.683)
Yes! Yes!

Yes, we're doing a Sober Girls Walk in Dallas. It's gonna be on the Katy Trail, but we're gonna meet at a Live in Well Health shout out. They're awesome up there. It's Saturday, September 14th. And then also in October, Jane will be a part of this too. We're gonna do a Sober October event at a Live in Well Health as well. It's gonna be a panel. It's gonna kick off Sober October. So.

Jane (49:52.948)
Woohoo! Yes.

Jane (50:01.279)
Yes!

Yes. Yes.

Katie Butler (50:09.509)
There's all sorts of, those are kind of like the formal events I have coming up. And then I always do at least one like fitness pop -up a month. So at the end of September, we're gonna do a pop -up at class studios, have a bunch of non -alcoholic drinks for after to taste. We'll probably, yeah, we'll do, we do about every six weeks or a month, we'll do one. so, but I always post, you know, plenty of information on the Instagram link tree, all, know, TikTok, all the fun things. So if you ever wanna find us, so yeah.

Jane (50:12.842)
Yes.

Jane (50:24.053)
Awesome.

Jane (50:36.712)
Okay, great. Yes, we will definitely post links to your TikTok and your Instagram in the show notes. On Instagram, it's at sober and sorry, I did it again at alcohol free and dally. D -A -L -L -Y. Yes. All right. Well, Katie Butler, you are a delight. Thank you again.

Katie Butler (50:38.799)
But yeah, I'm excited for all those.

Katie Butler (50:48.577)
Don't worry. In Dally, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Perfect. Awesome.

Katie Butler (51:00.037)
Thank you, Jane. It's so good to talk.

Jane (51:02.435)
Yes, you too.