How The Sober New Yorker Turned a Health Scare into the Best Decision of Her Life

Jane Ballard (00:02.377)
Melissa, it is so good to have you on the podcast. How are you today?

Melissa McGovern (00:07.95)
Hi, Jane. I am so well. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here today.

Jane Ballard (00:13.823)
Yes, I am so excited that you're here. Well, let's just jump right in and maybe tell me a little bit about where you are in the world and what you're doing in the alcohol free space.

Melissa McGovern (00:28.558)
Well, I am in one of the biggest, greatest cities in the world. And that would be New York City. I am right in Manhattan. I am in the middle of it all. I like to say, I never know what I'm gonna face when I leave my house, my apartment in the morning. And that is the honest truth.

Jane Ballard (00:32.949)
You are.

Jane Ballard (00:48.161)
I've seen those photos where you'll post like what your view is and it's so beautiful and it would just be such an exciting adventurous way to live life.

Melissa McGovern (00:56.289)
Right.

Melissa McGovern (01:00.014)
It is, and it keeps you on your toes because you really never know what you're going to encounter, who you're going to encounter, how the day is going to unfold. You can have some kind of plan, but you should always expect the plan to go a little bit awry. So, but I've lived here for nearly 30 years. It'll be 30 years this summer, which is really kind of unbelievable. It's hard to wrap my mind around that. I love it.

Jane Ballard (01:17.652)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (01:22.123)
How?

Melissa McGovern (01:29.038)
I still love it. actually since being alcohol free, I love it even more because it has allowed me to become more patient and more centered and grounded for when those circumstances of not knowing what to expect hit me. It's okay because I have the tools to deal and I wish more New Yorkers would.

Jane Ballard (01:47.307)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (01:51.115)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (01:56.865)
Yes. Well, when you moved there, yes. Well, when you moved there 30 years ago, did you ever think that you would be known as the sober New Yorker?

Melissa McGovern (01:58.062)
Because things can get you riled up. I'm sorry, go ahead.

Melissa McGovern (02:08.878)
Hell no. No, no. mean, that is, yeah, it's a trip. It's a trip to think of myself as that is my title right now. It's wild. It's just crazy the way life goes and the hands that it deals you. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (02:12.202)
You

Jane Ballard (02:20.916)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (02:25.856)
Yeah, you just never know where it's going to take you and that's part of the adventure is being open to that.

Melissa McGovern (02:31.234)
Right.

It is. Yeah. And as far as the alcohol free space, I am coaching in it right now. Most of my coaches, most of my clients are not in New York. I would like that to change. Actually, I would like to cultivate more clients in the city and so that I could meet in person. I really love the one on one connection in person.

my ideal client would be to meet in Central Park and power walk and talk about being alcohol free and setting up a plan and diving in that way or meeting at a cafe or even at the office in my apartment. So that's definitely a goal of mine to try to get into some kind of a market that way. But for now I have clients all over

Jane Ballard (03:27.86)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (03:32.878)
was going to say the country, I actually have one in Canada as well. yeah, so I do meet with them on Zoom like everyone does in the coaching world. And that has been really fulfilling. And I really enjoy doing that.

Jane Ballard (03:35.818)
Wow.

Jane Ballard (03:48.449)
Yeah. So you and I met, we have a couple of different connections. We met through Karolina Jodkowolska's coaching certification program through Euphoric AF. And we did that for most of 2024, like pretty much April through really till January, right? January, we just finished not that long ago. I miss everyone so much.

Melissa McGovern (04:01.102)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa McGovern (04:10.338)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (04:14.08)
And you and I got to meet in person at the Palm Springs Retreat and we had that amazing experience touring mid-century modern homes and there is something about being in person and getting to meet people face to face and spend time together that is just so much more satisfying than through a screen. Although through a screen is still pretty amazing how much you can really get to know someone.

Melissa McGovern (04:17.816)
Yup.

Melissa McGovern (04:22.754)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (04:39.436)
I agree. I never thought it would be that. I remember when the pandemic first started, I was a part of a, like a mom support group. And we started meeting through the screen and I just dreaded it. I thought it was the worst way to meet. And it didn't feel natural to me at all. It didn't feel comfortable. And through our experience with the pandemic, know, things definitely changed. And now it does feel.

Like you can really make a connection. It's really come full circle, feel. Yeah, so.

Jane Ballard (05:11.476)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Well, let's rewind a little bit. I wonder if you could share with listeners a little bit about your journey of drinking and then becoming an alcohol-free person.

Melissa McGovern (05:33.376)
Yeah, it's funny because I've been on so many podcasts at this point and I also have my own, The Sober New Yorker. And so in my head, I like to think about if someone asks me that question about my journey, I feel like I have two answers, the short answer and the long answer. And right, the short answer is simply it was time. It was time. The long answer.

Jane Ballard (05:53.472)
We want the long one.

Jane Ballard (05:59.19)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (06:02.586)
is it was years, if not decades, of trying to moderate my drinking, trying to be the woman that drank socially, had one or two drinks, and then called it a night. I was never that woman. I drank at an event, and then I went home and drank more.

And I couldn't, it was always the party, the party never wanted to stop for me. I never wanted the party to stop. I never thought about the next day, about how awful I would feel. It was always in the moment and being, having fun and, you know, dancing the night away, having, you know, just going for it. And the older I got,

Jane Ballard (06:40.106)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (07:02.764)
the next days just became worse and worse. And, but yet still there was a part of me that knew that it wasn't, it wasn't working, but there was so many things that said, how can you, how could you get rid of this one thing forever? How could you, it's still so much a part of your life. It's there every time you take a trip, it's there for weddings, for

get togethers, right? It's everywhere. It's such a part of your life. Right.

Jane Ballard (07:34.24)
Yeah, for vacations and pretty much everything. it's in our culture, it's embedded in our culture and that's starting to change a little bit. But that has been the case in the 80s, 90s and on with just this increase.

Melissa McGovern (07:53.058)
Yeah. Yet every time, every time I took a break, I felt really good. I felt so good. And a lot of times those breaks were doctor ordered. I would see my doctor and my liver enzymes would be slightly elevated. And it was usually because I was stressed about something and I was taking it out by drinking more. That's what I was using to fill the grief or

Jane Ballard (08:17.408)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa McGovern (08:23.308)
the stress in my life. And my doctor would say, take a break for three weeks, abstain from alcohol, come back and we'll retest your blood. And in those three weeks, I felt so good. And I thought, my God, this is amazing. What if this was my life for longer? But still I couldn't wrap my head around it being a forever thing. Right.

Jane Ballard (08:50.064)
idea forever.

Melissa McGovern (08:52.91)
In about 2016, 2017 was when I really started getting sober curious. Like what if this was a long-term thing?

Jane Ballard (09:08.362)
Did you have those words yet? So we're curious. Okay.

Melissa McGovern (09:10.796)
Yeah, I remember that book, Ruby Warrington, Sober Curious, I think it's called, yeah. It had come out, I don't remember how I heard about it, but I bought it and I read it. And I thought, okay, this is interesting. Maybe there's a way for me to, I just started to get curious, right?

Jane Ballard (09:15.912)
Okay. Okay.

Jane Ballard (09:37.504)
experiment with it rather than it being this all or nothing label I'm this or that kind of thing.

Melissa McGovern (09:44.482)
Right, right. Yet it was still like this moderation game. But it was also the first time where I really thought about taking a break. And Andy Ramage, he's this English soccer player, he had a program called One Year No Beer. I heard him on a Rich Roll podcast talking about it. And he had a book called The 28 Day

alcohol experiment or something like that, where basically for 28 days you weren't going to drink. And I thought, Oh, I could do that. I could do 28 days. I bought that book and I started it, you know, and I got six days and then it was a Friday night. And I was like, okay, what do you mean? I can't drink on a Friday night. so exactly.

Jane Ballard (10:38.619)
Yeah, that's when it's like, how about moderation?

Melissa McGovern (10:42.766)
I tried again, maybe I got 16 or 17 days, know? And so those things, know, those experiments, those spells of being dry for a certain amount of time started to happen. I started to get curious about it. And in 2019, I woke up one day, was so hungover. It was November of 2019.

And I was just like, this is it. I cannot do this anymore. And I took a selfie. I've never done that on a bad hangover day. And I leaned into that program. I'd signed up for a 90 day, one year, no beer. There were different stints. Yeah, exactly. That you could sign up for. I signed up for the 90 day and I did it. I got through. After 90 days, I signed up for a year.

Jane Ballard (11:29.226)
lengths of time.

Melissa McGovern (11:39.5)
And you would get daily videos and you were a part of a Facebook group. So you were connected in a way. But on March 12th, 2020. Right, it was we all remember what happened. Yeah. And especially in New York, it was like ground zero here. And I said to my husband, think I want a beer. And I I said a beer because that really wasn't my drink.

Jane Ballard (11:50.986)
Gosh. The world shuts down.

Melissa McGovern (12:09.42)
I felt like I could have just one. he, yeah. And he even said to me at that point, he said, have a beer. Do you think you can have just one? And I did have just one that night, but then as the pandemic rolled on, it just, you know, it ramped up more and more. And through the pandemic, things escalated with my drinking. I got busy with a side hustle, which was good, which meant

Jane Ballard (12:10.932)
You could manage that.

Melissa McGovern (12:38.816)
I was rewarding myself with alcohol. I had some loss in the pandemic. My mother-in-law passed away very quickly from cancer. She got diagnosed with a tumor around her spine and she was gone 10 days later.

Jane Ballard (12:49.248)
I'm

Jane Ballard (12:55.911)
my gosh.

Melissa McGovern (12:58.094)
Very sudden, very tragic. Our whole family had booked tickets to go see her, to say goodbye, and it ended up being her memorial. So it shook us as a family. It shook my husband. This was the matriarch of our family. And I drank a lot. I drank a lot. Nine months after that, my best friend of 27 years, T. Scott,

Jane Ballard (13:09.281)
Wow.

That's traumatic. Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (13:27.402)
who always had an issue with alcohol on and off. He

walked into the hospital to get his stomach drained. I forget the word. There's a, exactly.

Jane Ballard (13:43.412)
paracentesis. Yes, when they've developed ascites and fluid accumulates in the peritoneal cavity.

Melissa McGovern (13:48.43)
Exactly. He was right. He was dealing with that. He was on a liver transplant list and I knew he wasn't going to live a long life. But I but you never know. Anyway, he walked into the hospital in April of 2022 and he didn't he didn't leave. He passed away in the hospital.

Jane Ballard (14:07.648)
And so there wasn't this expectation that that was the end, but it ended up being the end.

Melissa McGovern (14:15.166)
Correct. And that was, you he was my ride or die. was my, that's who I moved to New York with. He was the man of honor in my wedding. He was there for both of my children's birth and,

Jane Ballard (14:32.128)
Were y'all friends in Wisconsin?

Melissa McGovern (14:34.858)
We met doing a show together. I was a theater actress and the first show I got cast in out of college, he also was in, he got cast in out of New York. And it was literally from day one, he sized me up at the piano and said, exactly how tall are you? I said, I'm 5'11 and I wear heels as much as possible. And it was...

Jane Ballard (14:53.46)
Ha

Jane Ballard (15:01.488)
Yes.

Melissa McGovern (15:04.142)
We were thick as thieves, I'm telling you, for 27 years. And even though he didn't live in New York at the time of his passing, he lived in Ohio, we had kept up our relationship, which made me very happy that we were, towards the end, he was in a good place. I'm comforted by that, that he...

Jane Ballard (15:29.694)
You find peace knowing that.

Melissa McGovern (15:31.808)
Yeah, that he left this world in a good place, that he had found his higher power and I was proud of him. I got to tell him that. But you know what? His death gutted me. It gutted me. And instead of me saying, okay, Melissa, what the fuck are you doing with your life? Let's get it together. This is clearly a sign that you could pull yourself together and stop drinking as much.

Jane Ballard (15:46.023)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (16:01.71)
I did the opposite and I just carried on and I kept drinking more, I kept eating more, basically whatever he couldn't do because he wasn't alive, I did for him. And about a year after he passed in the summer of 23, I just started feeling like,

Jane Ballard (16:16.159)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (16:30.866)
Absolutely not myself. I didn't recognize myself in pictures. I hated the way I looked. I would avoid mirrors when I passed them. I would start waking up in the morning and thinking, what if I didn't get out of bed today? And I had never had anything like that. I had never experienced anything like that. I've had friends and family that have gone down that.

Jane Ballard (16:50.941)
experience that.

Melissa McGovern (17:00.588)
depression road and I always thanked God that it never came for me. And here it was coming for me and I knew exactly why. I knew exactly why it was. And I couldn't, I couldn't ask anyone for help. I couldn't talk to anyone about it. It was like I was stuck, like I was in quicksand, you know, being taken down.

Jane Ballard (17:22.024)
almost like you can see it, you know what's happening, but you just can't do what you know you need to do.

Melissa McGovern (17:28.974)
It's so hard to describe that to someone. For someone like now, when someone says, why didn't you ask for help? I was here, I could have helped. It's like, you don't get it.

Jane Ballard (17:32.168)
It really is.

Jane Ballard (17:45.504)
It's like there's this lens or this filter that just makes it feel impossible.

Melissa McGovern (17:51.884)
It's so hard to explain. It's such a phenomenon. don't know. gosh, it's so, and it's so, it's almost like my mission now to tell people you can't do it alone. You have to ask for help. And it's part of the things that drives me as a coach to, we have to do this together. We have to be in this together. We cannot do this by ourselves.

Jane Ballard (18:08.853)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (18:20.98)
And you've got an amazing support system with your husband and two kids and friends and.

Melissa McGovern (18:25.172)
I

I did, I still do. And I could have easily asked for help. Anyway, the person that I had talked to in the past was my doctor about these things. For some reason, she felt safe to me. And I had an appointment with her because I needed a medication refilled. That's really the only reason I went to see her.

and I hadn't seen her maybe in almost two years. Yeah. So when I went to see her, I was very honest with the fact that I thought I was drinking too much. I had heard at the time that semaglutides, which is now really in the news, as a correct that also helps you, helps curb

Jane Ballard (19:19.88)
Yes. A weight loss medication.

Jane Ballard (19:26.634)
helps cravings for food, alcohol, yeah.

Melissa McGovern (19:28.426)
Exactly. And, yep. So I had heard this in the news. So I went to her with this information and she said, yeah, you're, right. I have, I'm aware of this as well, but you don't qualify because you're not diabetic. Like it wasn't there yet. Like it is now, you know, this is an August of 23. And so she mentioned Naltrexone for the first time. I'd never heard of that before.

Jane Ballard (19:45.77)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Melissa McGovern (19:55.706)
And we just, you know, she talked about AA, you know, not really my thing. She had, she remembered the one year, no beer that I talked to her about, you know, she knew that I was on and off this alcohol thing. Cause I had gone in during that four months that I was on the wagon, I had gone in and I was like, I'm done. Like she, she was really attentive doctor.

Jane Ballard (20:18.176)
you've remembered that.

Melissa McGovern (20:21.644)
I just love her so much. She's such a big part of my story. Every time I see her, like, I'm going to get you on stage one of these days. I do. want to get her on my podcast. she's so English is not her first language. She's Romanian. Girl, I'm going to get you on my podcast.

Jane Ballard (20:28.416)
Yeah, she needs to be.

Jane Ballard (20:38.27)
Yes. Well, and I think a lot of people in the medical profession, they shy away from talking about alcohol use and bringing it to patients' attention when there are issues that could be attributed to that.

Melissa McGovern (20:55.138)
They do, you're right. It's often like because they don't want to think about their own issues with it.

Jane Ballard (21:00.916)
I think you're right. all as a society want to make that the exception. Like we just don't touch it. You know, let's turn a blind eye to it. Let's just be in denial collectively.

Melissa McGovern (21:08.994)
Right, right. Well, she's not your typical doctor in that way. And she took my blood, know, she didn't want to jump to conclusions, even though I knew my blood work was going to be awful. It really did. It did not surprise me when we got the results back and they were just, it was the worst blood work I've ever had. And I was 51 years old and it wasn't just my liver enzymes, which were really...

Jane Ballard (21:15.498)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (21:38.35)
out of control, the worst. You know, and I like to bring this number up for people that are listening, because I have to remind myself of it too. You know, these numbers are the AST and the ALT, they run between five and 40. One of them was 195. And the other one was 311.

Jane Ballard (22:00.459)
So that got your attention.

Melissa McGovern (22:02.83)
Yeah, there was no gray area about those numbers.

Jane Ballard (22:07.648)
Well, and considering losing your best friend to liver disease. And you knew firsthand what that experience was like for him.

Melissa McGovern (22:12.046)
Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (22:20.482)
Yeah. Yeah. And everything else too, my blood pressure, my cholesterol, my weight, my A1C was close to diabetic, my glucose. It was, there was such a instant like, this is it. I cannot keep up this charade. I cannot.

Jane Ballard (22:33.6)
day.

Jane Ballard (22:52.414)
almost like you came clean with yourself of like, I'm not gonna sit in denial anymore. I'm gonna admit this.

Melissa McGovern (22:52.769)
It was it.

Melissa McGovern (22:57.92)
No, no. I said instantly, you are not a moderate drinker. You will never be a moderate drinker. Girl, you have tried. You have tried. have like tried it like it's your job and you have gotten fired from your job over and over and over. Like it's time to get a new job. This is clearly not working. And I...

Jane Ballard (23:16.576)
Ha ha!

Jane Ballard (23:23.028)
Yeah, and I think that's like the living hell of moderation is that it's like this elusive thing that seems so attainable yet isn't and takes so much work.

Melissa McGovern (23:32.556)
Yeah. So I, I mean, I remember exactly where I was when I checked, you know, my chart and saw those numbers. And I, right there, I just made up my mind that was it. It's time to start living my life. And, and I did. I, and it wasn't just, you know, and she emailed me back. this was the classic email and I love it so much.

Jane Ballard (23:50.442)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (24:02.4)
She said in the email that it's time to make a behavioral, what did she say? Drastic behavioral changes. Change your diet, move more, try to stop drinking, or I'm gonna put you on medication. And that was another thing. Like, I don't wanna be put on medication. exactly. And go down the diabetic route, my mom and.

Jane Ballard (24:22.25)
Yeah.

on statins and blood pressure medicine and all the things.

Melissa McGovern (24:32.204)
My Nana are, were diabetic starting at age 50. I was already pre-diabetic. I've been taking a metformin for like nine years. So I just, I just, I got busy and she said, I want, you know, I want to see you again, no less than three months. I made an appointment for 11 weeks and I said, I got 11 weeks to do this, to get my shit together. And I did.

Jane Ballard (24:46.139)
chose life.

Melissa McGovern (25:01.824)
I did. I started walking. I started going to my gym. pay for this incredibly beautiful, luxurious, bougie ass gym that I was going to like three times a month. And I started going more. I started walking every day. I started walking every day. cut out, you know, refined carbs. I cut out a lot of dairy. I limited it. I don't want to say cut out.

Jane Ballard (25:12.394)
Hahaha

Jane Ballard (25:18.016)
I like you gotta go, you gotta get here.

Jane Ballard (25:31.253)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (25:31.63)
I upped my water intake. I didn't drink alcohol. And I went back 11 weeks later and my liver enzymes were normal, completely normal. All the way, yes, all the way back down to between five and 40. My cholesterol dropped 50 points. 50.

Jane Ballard (25:48.692)
That's amazing.

Jane Ballard (26:00.225)
My gosh, in 11 weeks.

Melissa McGovern (26:02.35)
11 weeks. My blood pressure was normal. My A1c dropped to below pre-diabetic. So it was 6.6. It dropped to 5.5.

Jane Ballard (26:15.028)
Gosh.

Melissa McGovern (26:16.59)
And I lost 27 pounds in 11 weeks.

Jane Ballard (26:20.038)
my gosh. I mean, that just goes to show you that the body, if we support the body, it will heal itself. You know, like health is what our, yeah, it really is. But think about that turning point. If you had not said, I'm ready to wake up and do things differently. Now a year and a half later, almost two years later, you would probably be.

Melissa McGovern (26:27.918)
Correct.

wealth.

It really is.

Jane Ballard (26:49.312)
totally different than you are right now.

Melissa McGovern (26:52.344)
Jane, it was a fork in the road. Literally. I could get my shit together and start living a really incredible life that I've always knew I could live, honestly. Or I could just keep going down that road and for what? So I could keep, you know, drinking wine?

Jane Ballard (26:56.138)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (27:18.944)
Well, you weren't, it sounds like you weren't enjoying it. You were, no. And you are an incredible person with so many unique gifts. You your ability to connect with people and disarm people and make people laugh and perform and like you have so much to offer. And I think that we all have this generative drive to use our gifts.

Melissa McGovern (27:22.604)
No, that wasn't, that wasn't.

Jane Ballard (27:48.296)
and share them with the world. And when we aren't doing that, we do get depressed.

Melissa McGovern (27:53.218)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it was it was like it was a life or death decision. It really was. And I saw my best friend succumb to it. So

Jane Ballard (27:56.063)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (28:02.74)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (28:12.021)
He's my bigger why, you know?

Jane Ballard (28:14.516)
Yeah, it's like you were drinking for him and then you were getting well for him.

Melissa McGovern (28:19.02)
Yeah, yeah. So he's, you know, he's, and he would get such a kick out of it. My God. I mentioned that in Palm Springs, you know, the fact that I'm talking about T. Scott almost everywhere I go, the fact that so many people know about T. Scott in my world, he would just, God, cause he loved the spotlight. He loved being front and center. I mean, this man is,

Jane Ballard (28:34.548)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (28:46.208)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (28:48.962)
Believe me, he is enjoying it from wherever he's looking down upon because he's still front and center.

Jane Ballard (28:57.754)
Yes, I mean he would... I'm sure he would be so proud.

Melissa McGovern (29:02.892)
Yeah, I believe that, I do. Yeah, so through all that, you know, and after going to see her 11 weeks later, in the past, if I cleaned up my act and I went to see my doctor, it would have been like, okay, I'm feeling pretty good. Maybe I'll dip my toe back in and have a little wine to celebrate. There was nothing in my head that said that. It was all like, onward ho.

Jane Ballard (29:31.518)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (29:32.204)
This is my life. This is my new life. And it was maybe like a couple weeks into, I mean, a couple months into this that I heard on a podcast, someone talking about the coaching program we went through. And I thought, wow, you know, I think I could see myself doing that. And I looked into it and I found a different program of hers and I signed up. I started like,

signing up for things just to keep me sober. just like, there was a retreat in June. It was August, it was October. The following June, there was a retreat in Vermont. I was like, okay, I'm going. I could drive to it. I'm going. It's gonna keep me sober. I had no idea. Yeah. Exactly.

Jane Ballard (30:05.758)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (30:16.81)
Sign me up.

Jane Ballard (30:21.856)
think it does help to have these things we're working towards and that we're looking forward to and we know it's coming up. It's almost a form of accountability.

Melissa McGovern (30:28.236)
Yeah, I had no idea. Right, right. And it just so happened that it came with a membership to a group of women that met weekly. And so I joined that group. That was the Sova Sisters group with Megan Wilcox. And from there, there were other groups. it just became like I became part of teams of these

Jane Ballard (30:46.048)
Love that.

Melissa McGovern (30:57.494)
incredibly radical, badass women who were making the decision to live in a world obsessed with alcohol, being sober in a world obsessed with alcohol. And I fit right in. And I just felt like it just was so empowering.

Jane Ballard (31:06.144)
being sober.

Jane Ballard (31:17.152)
think that's like one of the best parts is you meet these amazing people who are on this journey with you. And you know, you you think, when you're still drinking, at least for me, I'm like, well, it won't be fun or it'll be boring or I won't have any friends or anyone to hang out with. the women who are on this journey. Are so amazing and so interesting and. Like, yes, they're fine, but it's it's so much more than fine. It's like there's depth.

there and there's true connection and true meaning and purpose and I think that's one of the most satisfying things.

Melissa McGovern (31:54.912)
It's so interesting because I've known women for less than a year that I feel more connected to than I have my friends for 30 years because we share such a powerful bond, right?

Jane Ballard (32:08.51)
Isn't that amazing?

Jane Ballard (32:13.14)
Yeah, right. And you don't waste time thinking that you're connecting on alcohol and then like you just don't even really remember that connection later. So it was kind of just lost. That time was lost. And that doesn't happen in alcohol-free friendships.

Melissa McGovern (32:28.131)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (32:31.758)
There's a lot of time wasted on friendships where alcohol is the core element. Yeah, but you don't realize that until you are on the other side of it. Yeah, yeah.

Jane Ballard (32:39.742)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (32:43.872)
until you're out of it. So all those years that you were moderating or attempting moderation, I think so many people, so many women find themselves in that place for a period of time. For people who are listening who are in that place, is there anything, looking back, is there anything you could have heard that could have kind of woken you up sooner or?

Do you think that people just have to get to the point in their journey where they wake up?

Melissa McGovern (33:17.262)
Well, I think that it happens to everyone when it's supposed to happen. I really do. I don't regret when it happened to me. Could it have happened earlier? Yes. Do I regret that it didn't happen earlier? No. You know what I mean? I don't live in regrets.

Jane Ballard (33:42.944)
There was meaning and purpose in every piece of the journey.

Melissa McGovern (33:45.045)
Eh.

Right. I think if someone would have said to me, I also I think where we are right now, we're at a very special place that didn't exist six, seven years ago. We're at this place where sober Instagram is a thing. Right. Like I have women that follow me. I don't know who they are, but they're following me because they're they they're inspired by.

the life that I'm living out loud as a sober person.

Jane Ballard (34:18.718)
Yes, they're curious and yeah, inspired.

Melissa McGovern (34:22.636)
Right. I did the same thing before I became sober. So that world is really cool. Like that you can follow someone, you can watch them from a distance and it can start to seep in. That wasn't there, you know, even six, seven years ago. Right. So. So if there are, you know, I would just say like, if, you know, if there are little

Jane Ballard (34:41.792)
Yeah, it really wasn't.

Melissa McGovern (34:52.398)
twinges of this wanting to be a possibility, you know, we get hung up on all of those limiting beliefs that how am I going to be with my friends and not drink? How am I going to go to my cousin's wedding and not drink? How the heck am I going to take a vacation and not drink? Right? When really all we need to be focused on is right here and now.

Jane Ballard (35:01.152)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (35:14.943)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (35:22.048)
That's so true.

Melissa McGovern (35:22.582)
And all we need to do is think about right here and now and putting one foot in front of the other and carving out new habits and new routines and taking it one day at a time, literally, because the more momentum you build, the more days you build, the better you're going to feel. And if someone would have said to me, Melissa, when you get to be

three months, four months, six months, you are gonna be, you're gonna start to feel so good that you are not gonna wanna go back to drinking. If someone would have said that to me, if I could have seen that from someone I knew personally, you know, maybe that would have, would have sunk in and it would have given me a little more like, man, maybe that is something that I should really.

think about and start to try.

Jane Ballard (36:23.248)
Yes, maybe it is possible.

Melissa McGovern (36:26.988)
Yeah, and maybe that comes from a coach, know, maybe I would have taken that up that, you know, I didn't know there was there were coaches.

Jane Ballard (36:37.364)
Yeah, that there's alcohol-free life coaches out there. There's so many of us out there and we're passionate about helping people experience the freedom that we've found for ourselves. And I think a piece of it is just trusting your future self. Like you don't have to decide today if you're gonna drink at your child's wedding in 10 years or if you're gonna drink on that trip to the...

Melissa McGovern (36:41.836)
Right, right.

Jane Ballard (37:05.236)
you know, the wine country, like just trust your future self. Do what you need to do today to be the best version of yourself and your future self will figure that out. You may get there and be like, why the heck did I think I needed alcohol to enjoy this beautiful wine country? Like I, this place is gorgeous. You don't need alcohol to enhance it.

Melissa McGovern (37:14.562)
Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (37:27.694)
Right, right. Yeah, and I think just, you know, the older you get, it just feels really good to feel good. There's just no better feeling.

Jane Ballard (37:36.298)
That's so true. That is so true.

Melissa McGovern (37:39.27)
And life is, I mean, life is short, but it can also be really long when you're not drinking, when you're not wasting time to being hung over.

Jane Ballard (37:46.197)
Yeah, that's so true. And the other thing about midlife women is that perimenopause and menopause can be incredibly stressful and difficult, but it can also be incredibly empowering. You know, if you can harness that increased irritability to set boundaries and not put up with some of the BS that maybe you put up with in the past, and you actually focus on yourself and you allow yourself

Melissa McGovern (38:01.826)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (38:14.634)
to do what you want to do, even though it feels selfish, it's actually not, but it can feel selfish. It's a great opportunity and can be an amazing turning point for life. And so I just want to encourage women who maybe are in your late 30s, 40s, 50s, or 60s, 70s, know, there's something beautiful about this phase of life. We don't need to be scared or think that we're, you know, the best years are behind us because they're not.

Melissa McGovern (38:43.598)
No, no, I agree completely. Yeah. Yeah, I've never felt so good to be where I am. I'm, you know, 53 years old and I feel amazing. I so good.

Jane Ballard (38:47.434)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (38:51.262)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (38:55.936)
Yes, I think that we more people need to hear that and know that your 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, they don't have to be in poor health.

Melissa McGovern (39:08.692)
Mm-mm. No.

Jane Ballard (39:10.464)
So one other thing I'd love to touch on, we have a shared love and another connection. So we have Carolina from Euphoric, but also Megan Wilcox with Soba Sisters. So I went to Bali on her retreat in 2020, when did I go? 2023. And you went in 2024, right? Yes. So I'm curious what that experience was like for you in terms of just.

Melissa McGovern (39:29.482)
I did.

Jane Ballard (39:37.982)
your relationship with yourself and healing and alcohol. you find that experience almost like being in that beautiful culture and that beautiful island? Did you find that experience to be healing?

Melissa McGovern (39:53.614)
I thought that experience was like a dream. It was next level. It was so incredibly calming and beautiful. And what I took away from it was the people were just so happy. They, yeah, and they don't have much, you know, the,

Jane Ballard (40:16.859)
What are you

Melissa McGovern (40:22.67)
cost of living is so low and they don't make much money and yet they are so happy. they, I mean, I'm a people person. Wherever I travel in the world, that's what I wanna do. I wanna talk to the people. I wanna get to know them. And that was my biggest takeaway. At the end of the week, we talked about our biggest takeaways and that was it. Like I have pictures with,

Jane Ballard (40:30.921)
Yes.

Melissa McGovern (40:52.884)
a bunch of the locals because I mean, I got to know them by name, the hotel where we stayed on, you know, I knew I had the pie guy, I had the cafe guy across the street, I had the the the women in the in the restaurant, just beautiful, beautiful people who put out their, you know, their gods every day the offering to their gods, right.

Jane Ballard (40:57.78)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (41:07.85)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (41:15.622)
Yes, they're offerings. They weave these like intricate baskets with leaves and put flowers and petals and it's just it's a work of art and then they offer it to the gods multiple times a day.

Melissa McGovern (41:25.848)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (41:30.506)
and the water healing ceremony, the cooking class we took at Putu's home. I mean, was just, it was beautiful. And sharing with the other alcohol-free women that were there and the things that, the exercises that Megan led us in, the women's groups coming together as women and writing.

Jane Ballard (41:36.222)
Yes.

Melissa McGovern (41:57.778)
know, breakup letters to alcohol and, you know, all the different things we did were very healing and the meals we shared and, you know, and this was really funny because it was something that I didn't realize until I got home. Someone had asked me about the, because I was talking about the prices of things because they were so inexpensive.

Jane Ballard (42:04.916)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (42:22.15)
Mm-hmm, the massages.

Melissa McGovern (42:24.366)
Right. And the food, you know, we sat down our last night there for, you know, the four of us had a last meal with mocktails and entree and dessert and we paid $12 each and people can't wrap their head around that. It's like, this really happened. Yes, amazing. So when I got home, someone asked me about the prices of alcohol and wine.

Jane Ballard (42:27.06)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (42:39.072)
Yeah. And like fresh juices and fruits and vegetables and so much stuff.

Melissa McGovern (42:55.166)
And I said, I have no idea. I have no idea how much that costs. I never once looked at how much a glass of wine costs on the menu. It never even occurred to me to look at that.

Jane Ballard (43:10.602)
to check it out. I don't think I have either, to be honest.

Melissa McGovern (43:14.592)
And in the past, right, I I celebrated eight months sober when I went on that trip. In the past, just out of curiosity, I would have. didn't even occur to me. And this is something that happens. It becomes your new normal that you go immediately to the mocktail list, to the juice list, to the food list, to the dessert list, right, right.

Jane Ballard (43:25.632)
It didn't even occur to you.

Jane Ballard (43:37.714)
Yes, to the dessert list. Yes.

Melissa McGovern (43:42.86)
Because it wasn't about that. It was about the experience of, you know, we were up early. We were, I mean, yeah, you're jet lagged too, but you're up early. You're, ugh.

Jane Ballard (43:52.957)
Yeah, but still up early moving, doing yoga, connecting, talking about things that are meaningful.

Melissa McGovern (44:01.696)
It was just absolutely beautiful. It was worth the trip. If anyone here is considering it, I highly recommend it. And go, don't go for just a week. Bookend it, because it takes you a long time to get there. yeah.

Jane Ballard (44:17.652)
does. Yes, I'm going to stop on I'm leaving actually in about a month and I'm going to stop in Dubai for a couple of days and do a little exploring. So you know, you can bookend it with another place halfway there.

Melissa McGovern (44:28.674)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (44:32.308)
Absolutely. never, you know, if you would have told me I would be in Bali as a sober woman on a sober vacation, know, sober women's retreat 10 years ago, I would have thought, actually, I would have thought that's really cool. Cause that means you got your shit together, Melissa, you know, good job lady.

Jane Ballard (44:51.868)
You're like, good job future you. Yes. Yeah. I think it's one of the best things I've ever done for myself. you know, something that was kind of scary, like I was almost like, what am I doing? Am I crazy? Just buying a flight. I'm going on this retreat for this woman that I've never met before. But it was just the most amazing thing ever.

Melissa McGovern (45:01.358)
Mm-hmm.

Melissa McGovern (45:16.748)
Yeah, yeah, highly recommend it. And it's one of those things, you know, that if you, encourage my clients, if you are just getting sober, look ahead to the future. If there's a retreat out there that you want to go to, if there's a 5k that you want to run, if there's a mountain you want to climb, look at, like look ahead to the future, because if it will give you a goal, if it will keep you sober and work, keep you working towards something.

Jane Ballard (45:35.796)
Yes, book it.

Melissa McGovern (45:46.912)
It's a great thing to book out.

Jane Ballard (45:50.209)
That's a great point. Like even if it's not a retreat, if you want to take a class or if you want to get a certification or run a race or some sort of milestone committing to it can be a great way to incentivize yourself to do it.

Melissa McGovern (45:56.342)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Melissa McGovern (46:07.266)
Yep, 100%.

Jane Ballard (46:08.288)
Yeah. One more quick thing I would love to touch on, because your husband is so cute and I love when you post about your marriage. How has marriage been for you, alcohol free? Because I think that's one thing that women worry about is like, well, will you not have anything in common? Will I not enjoy being around him? Will he not enjoy being around me? How has that been for y'all?

Melissa McGovern (46:31.726)
It's been probably the best year and a half of our 25 year marriage, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. He, so he, about a few months into our marriage, he made the decision to go alcohol free as well. I noticed that he wasn't drinking. He didn't drink a lot. He didn't drink nearly as me. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. A few months into my, I'm sorry. A few months into me being sober.

Jane Ballard (46:37.566)
Really?

Jane Ballard (46:53.31)
Wait, hold on. Did you say a few months into your marriage or a few months into you being sober? Okay.

Melissa McGovern (47:01.298)
he was never a big drinker. was never had to draw boundaries around his drinking. but I noticed he wasn't drinking and, and I asked him about it and he said, well, you're not drinking and to be supportive for you. And also, you know, I just thought maybe it's something I should look into as well. And it made him feel really good to not be drinking.

Jane Ballard (47:07.989)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (47:31.574)
He tends to carry anxiety in his stomach. He's his own boss, he's a business owner. So he's got a lot of pressure, a lot of stress. He manages a team of like 10 or 12 employees. And that stress in his stomach disappeared when he stopped drinking. We've spoken about it recently and it's made him more a better

Jane Ballard (47:51.666)
Isn't that amazing?

Melissa McGovern (48:00.941)
boss to his employees. He's not as snippy. He's more empathetic. He's more rational. As far as our relationship, because I interviewed him on my podcast, he was actually my first guest. So I was able to ask him some questions that maybe I couldn't ask him sitting down face to face, you know, and

Jane Ballard (48:14.526)
Uh-uh.

Jane Ballard (48:21.984)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (48:24.318)
He was very frank with the fact that, you know, he didn't know what kind of Melissa he was going to walk in on every night when he got home from work. It could be the volatile, flying off the handle, upset Melissa, or it could be the happy, buzzed, cooking dinner Melissa. It was, I was all over the place. And now that is gone. And my baseline is pretty chill.

Jane Ballard (48:45.064)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (48:53.918)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (48:54.42)
And even when things don't go my way, I'm not flying off the handle nearly as much as I was. I'm just so much more rational.

Jane Ballard (49:04.424)
Yeah, it probably feels much more manageable.

Melissa McGovern (49:08.662)
It's much more manageable and that just helps a marriage. just, it just really does. It helps parenting. It helps a marriage. helps any kind of relationship. It really does. It doesn't. So it has been great. And when we vacation, we don't need to sit and drink at dinner. We don't need to sit and drink and

Jane Ballard (49:13.662)
It really does.

Jane Ballard (49:23.262)
It really does.

Melissa McGovern (49:39.04)
at a bar, we just don't. And it feels really good to not be able to do that.

Jane Ballard (49:41.864)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (49:46.75)
It's kind of like the main attraction on the vacation is maybe getting up in the morning and doing some kind of adventure rather than staying up late and drinking and.

Melissa McGovern (49:55.446)
Yeah, we just had a vacation last week and we got up three or four mornings to watch the sun rise. We would never do that if we were drinking on vacation in the past, never.

Jane Ballard (50:05.864)
And then you get to experience that feeling of awe and just connection to a higher power and being present for the beauty of getting to live on this earth.

Melissa McGovern (50:17.582)
Absolutely. Yeah, it's been, it's been great. And, you know, I used to sit on my couch, which is where I did most of my drinking towards the end. And the TV would be on and I'd be doom scrolling and drinking my wine and my kids are older ones in college, one's about to graduate from high school. And he'd be, I worked part time, you know, at that time and, and he would come home and I used to think like, what am I?

What am I going to do when my kids leave my house and he's still working? I going to be sitting here drinking as he's working? And what does that look like as a couple? And that used to just really, it really made me feel, it really scared me. And now I don't think that at all because I'm rarely sitting on that couch and I'm not drinking.

Jane Ballard (50:48.96)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (51:01.621)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (51:05.088)
kind of get to you.

Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (51:16.742)
And now as a couple, our kids are on their way, you know, they're launching themselves and we have so many plans as a couple and none of it involves me sitting on the couch drinking and doom scrolling and watching TV.

Jane Ballard (51:33.408)
Well, and now you have a new mission to connect with other people who are curious about going alcohol free.

Melissa McGovern (51:37.751)
I do.

Melissa McGovern (51:41.44)
I do and it feels so good. Yeah. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (51:43.136)
Yeah.

Well, one last question. If you could give yourself some advice, let's say how many years ago do we want to do? Let's say 15 years ago, because your kids would have been young. You might have been in mommy wine culture then.

Melissa McGovern (52:01.015)
Okay.

Melissa McGovern (52:06.296)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (52:08.436)
what would you say to that other version of you?

Melissa McGovern (52:13.81)
God. I remember 15 years ago, I have a picture about that time with my son sleeping on me. When I'm hungover. I don't know where that picture is. I know at some point it's going to resurface. He was about three or four. She's 18 now. And I remember, I don't know even know who took it. But I just remember thinking like, all right, take the picture. And I felt

Jane Ballard (52:29.428)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (52:43.434)
Awful. What would I say to myself? I would say...

Jane Ballard (52:44.416)
us.

Melissa McGovern (52:51.318)
you're going to find your way out.

Jane Ballard (52:52.928)
It's going to be okay.

Melissa McGovern (52:56.183)
It's gonna be okay.

Jane Ballard (52:57.834)
Yeah.

Melissa McGovern (52:59.286)
Yeah, you know, I feel like sometimes we have to get going through shit.

Jane Ballard (53:04.138)
Yeah, I think you're right.

Melissa McGovern (53:05.772)
We have to go through the shit to get out the other side. I feel like we have to experience some real lows to experience those big highs. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (53:15.996)
Absolutely. I think, you know, as humans we learn through experience and we learn, sometimes we have to learn the hard way and as a parent we want to protect our kids from that. But in actuality that is the best, most meaningful learning and what makes us kind, compassionate, empathetic, wise humans.

Melissa McGovern (53:38.84)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (53:40.67)
Yeah, which you are one of for sure. I'm so happy that you're in my network of alcohol-free women and I just love you and I'm so grateful for the work you're doing.

Melissa McGovern (53:54.52)
Thank you, Jane. I'm so happy to be in your network as well.

Jane Ballard (53:59.348)
Well, how can people connect with you? Where can people find you?

Melissa McGovern (54:05.398)
Well, they can find me on Instagram at the sober New Yorker at the sober New Yorker is like my brand everywhere. I'm going to take out a billboard in Times Square at some point. Can you imagine? I think that would cost a little more than what my budget allows. You can find me.

Jane Ballard (54:15.456)
I love it. That's perfect.

You should. I want to see you on there.

Jane Ballard (54:27.462)
Yeah, that could be a little expensive.

Melissa McGovern (54:31.68)
On Instagram there you can find my podcast, The Sober New Yorker. That's my website, The Sober New Yorker. And yeah, that is all of my, that's my brand. That's who I am and connect with me there. And I'd love to hear from everyone, definitely.

Jane Ballard (54:44.434)
awesome.

Jane Ballard (54:51.208)
All right, well, Melissa, thank you so much. It has been a pleasure having you on and I just appreciate you being vulnerable and sharing your story with us.

Melissa McGovern (55:02.219)
It's great to see you, Jane. It's really wonderful. Thanks so much for having me.