54. Part 2 An Inside Look at Jane and Amanda's Lives 2 Years Post Breaking Up With Booze

Jane Ballard (00:02.481)
Welcome back everybody. This is our part two for our 2025 kickoff episode. And if you didn't catch part one, it's a great episode. Go back and listen to it when you have a chance, but you do not need to listen to it first to get everything you need to get out of today's episode. So we're super excited. We are gonna be talking about family of origin.

Amanda (00:28.227)
you

Jane Ballard (00:32.167)
relationships and really this phenomenon of these old dynamics coming back up and being experienced in a new way during sobriety especially as people are getting kind of past that first year like you and I Amanda are both in year three now and we are

we're feeling a difference. We've gotten through those first two years, we're a few months into this third year. And for me recently, some family of origin stuff has been coming up. And I think for you, maybe the whole time you've been going through this sobriety, it's been coming up kind of off and on and you've been working through it and healing. And so my guess is that a lot of our listeners who are

Amanda (01:17.07)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (01:27.097)
living this alcohol-free lifestyle and it's becoming more normal, you might have a lower tolerance for unhealthy family dynamics, for lack of better word, or just family of origin stuff and things that were normalized in your family of origin. They don't really, those normalized unhealthy things don't feel as tolerable as they used to.

Amanda (01:51.906)
Yeah, absolutely. As you were talking, I was just thinking like the what we sometimes or may have at one point thought was impossible is possible. I think I used to time thinking about. Could I actually not talk to certain people or what if I didn't go there at Christmas or, you know, all of these, you know, once a year scenarios and.

Jane Ballard (02:19.739)
Yeah.

Amanda (02:20.95)
The truth is sometimes like what seems like such a big deal isn't such a big deal.

Jane Ballard (02:27.931)
That is a really, really good point. And it makes me think of the negative narratives we tell ourselves about sobriety before giving up alcohol of like, well, I can't give up alcohol because then someone was telling me like, well, when I'm wrapping presents, I have to have my eggnog and whatever rum or whatever goes in that. how would I do that? Or what about when I take a trip to Italy, I can't like drink red wine or?

or what about my kid's wedding, but your kid is five or you have no plans to go to Italy in the near future. You we have these things in our mind that that would just be impossible. And it's like, well, what would I do on Christmas? You're like.

Amanda (03:06.083)
Yeah.

Amanda (03:10.69)
Right. feel like travel is a big one for people in early sobriety or are thinking or people that are sober curious. If what I hear often is I have a trip planned for six months from now and it's at an all inclusive resort and there's going to be alcohol, like just this living outside of right now, living in the future, thinking about that trip six months from now and

Jane Ballard (03:18.861)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (03:33.807)
Yes.

Amanda (03:39.486)
I actually had a situation like that. was like a year before I quit drinking alcohol. I had gone alcohol free for a couple of weeks and Matt and I had a trip coming up and I remember I was going to therapy like, I don't know, every couple of weeks and every time I would talk to her, I would talk about this trip constantly. And I was this obsession with alcohol or drinking or not drinking, you know?

Jane Ballard (04:07.683)
just ruminating probably about, well, what would happen? What would people think? Or how would I have fun? Or I would be left out? Or people would think I'm boring? Or, you know, how it just feels impossible. We build these things up in our mind in the future when really it's like, just get through like this week and take it one week at a time or one day at a time and trust that your future self will figure it out in six months from now when you go on that trip.

Amanda (04:09.666)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (04:17.752)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (04:22.722)
Yeah, like, and...

Amanda (04:35.758)
Absolutely. I think also for me, one thing I thought about in that situation is that literally everyone at an all-inclusive resort is drinking, which is not true. know, like we've both been to lots of resorts where, yeah, sometimes we think that everyone is doing something, but the truth is that's just what we think, you know?

Jane Ballard (04:52.027)
This is so true.

Jane Ballard (05:02.319)
It's just what we think. It's confirmation bias. We're looking for things to confirm the narrative we have in our mind. We may think, well, everyone else is boozing all day long, but they've been sipping on the same drink all day long, or it's a mocktail. Who knows? It's an NA beer.

Amanda (05:10.83)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (05:21.666)
Yeah, that makes me think of like relationships with other moms. I think, you know, three or four years ago, or let's say five years ago, if I was going to be meeting a new mom, like I would invite her to go have wine, which I guess in my mind, I thought all moms drink wine. But what I've discovered the past several years is that no, they don't like.

Jane Ballard (05:22.758)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (05:50.619)
They don't.

Amanda (05:51.214)
A lot of moms like to wake up and feel really good the next day and go for hikes and do different things. that belief that everybody is doing something is just sometimes in my mind.

Jane Ballard (06:07.301)
Yeah, yeah, it's one of those thinking traps or cognitive distortions as they would call them in cognitive behavioral therapy of like, it feels like it magnifies. We have this kind of magnifying filter of like everyone is doing this and I'd be the only one. And really it's like, not entirely accurate, but it keeps us stuck.

Amanda (06:29.75)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's one thing that I love about like this chapter that we're in of mindful sobriety and being alcohol free is that, you know, we spend a lot of time thinking about things like this and things we wouldn't normally think about, I think.

Jane Ballard (06:50.801)
Well, we might be distracted by either drinking or recovering from drinking.

Amanda (07:00.01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (07:01.335)
and we wouldn't actually get to the deep stuff that we care about and that helps us enjoy life and be better people.

Amanda (07:10.658)
Yeah. So when we first got on this pod a few minutes ago, you had mentioned family of origin and you know that we're both in our third year of sobriety and I was thinking about like unhealthy relationships and the how they have transformed every so often throughout this journey for me. And so

Jane Ballard (07:29.319)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (07:40.95)
I think the first year I was just in it, you know? Like I was feeling all the feelings, reacting to all the feelings. I was just in it. I wasn't even considering removing myself from it and kind of observing what's going on or educated.

Jane Ballard (07:49.947)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (07:59.601)
So when you say in it, you mean like in the dynamics of the relationship, whatever that was, yeah.

Amanda (08:06.412)
Yeah, yeah, you know, reacting to things that are said or taking things personally or whatever the thing was.

Jane Ballard (08:18.981)
Right, it's like we kind of have these two modes of being. We have the experiencing self and then we have the observing self. And Western cultures like ours typically are really bad about being the observing self. But Eastern cultures that are more focused on meditation, they've developed that really well from an early age. And part of the problem of only living in the being self is that

you don't see things as accurately and clearly and you don't reflect before you behave. And so maybe you were just in this being self responding and reacting and trying to figure this out and doing the best you could.

Amanda (09:00.91)
Thank

Jane Ballard (09:08.571)
but it wasn't until you were able to spend some time observing the patterns and even reflecting on past patterns and reflecting on your responses that change was able to begin to happen.

Amanda (09:22.798)
Yeah, absolutely. Changing that narrative like we talked about in the first episode of 2025. So yeah, I think throughout my alcohol-free journey, I have gone from just kind of being the victim in the relationship in my life that was very difficult and becoming

kind of the, I don't know, I've put myself in a little bit of a leadership role in that relationship where I decide the direction that it's gonna go for me, you know, and.

Jane Ballard (10:08.26)
Well, that sounds almost like empowerment, you know? Because like leadership, that could mean like, what, are you controlling? Are you like, are you over responsible for things? But I don't think that's what you mean. To me, it's like, rather than just being open to whatever happens to you in that relationship, you are saying, you know what? I am going to empower myself with choices and I will choose.

Amanda (10:10.646)
Right.

Jane Ballard (10:38.245)
What conversations I participate in, how deep I go, what questions I answer, what questions I ask, what phone calls I take, how much time I spend.

Amanda (10:47.756)
Yeah. And what I was referring to as leadership is actually the opposite of controlling because what I, I think what I was doing in the beginning was actually controlling. was trying so hard to get this outcome that I so desperately felt like I needed that. I was disappointed a lot because it just wasn't going the way I hoped. And so at this point I.

Jane Ballard (11:10.407)
Uh-huh.

Amanda (11:16.266)
I don't want to control it at all. And I have no need to control the relationship at all. And whenever something does come up that maybe is uncomfortable or would have really gotten the best of me several years ago, I'm able to like research it and pick it apart and investigate it and think about like, okay, she said, this person said this.

Jane Ballard (11:33.231)
Yeah.

Amanda (11:46.826)
And why did they say this? And how do they mean for that to sound? just spend some time with it, observing it, rather than internalizing it and taking it.

Jane Ballard (12:02.201)
ruminating. I think that a lot of times in relationships with unhealthy patterns, one person might spend a lot of time in their head ruminating, problem solving, analyzing, interpreting, trying desperately to figure out the narrative that seems to fit. And it's so exhausting.

Amanda (12:14.392)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (12:25.678)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (12:29.027)
And then when you can let go of that and be like, you know what? It's not about me. Whatever this is, it's not about me. It's about this person. I can't, it's not mine to fix. I can't fix it. And trying to fix it is keeping me stuck. So I gotta just let it be and figure out how to keep myself safe in the context of this relationship. How much contact can I have or how much, what do I need the boundary to be?

Amanda (12:34.798)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amanda (12:42.956)
Yeah, yeah, and that.

Amanda (12:58.67)
Yeah, think that is key. What you just said is, it's not mine to fix, you know? And yeah, I just, think that, I think Mel Robbins has a book coming out or maybe it's already out called, Yeah, Let Them. Like that is one of the best theories I've ever heard is let them be whatever they are and say what they want to say and all the things and

Jane Ballard (13:05.617)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (13:12.857)
Yes, the left them theory.

Jane Ballard (13:25.819)
Yes.

Amanda (13:29.397)
observe, you know.

Jane Ballard (13:30.769)
Yes. And that doesn't mean they get to say whatever they want and verbally abuse you. You get to choose whether or not you partake in that conversation.

Amanda (13:36.568)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amanda (13:41.218)
Yeah, and I think throughout this process, it's so important to give ourselves so much grace because when we take a deep dive into doing all this stuff and then we get into the actual real life situation, it may be that that doesn't go the way that we hoped that it would go. And I had several experiences like that, many experiences like that, and I would be disappointed in myself because

Jane Ballard (14:00.613)
Yeah.

Amanda (14:10.56)
I would revert back to kind of that, yeah, like that wounded person, unhealed version of myself. And then one day, it's only happened one time really, we were in a situation and this person said something that was just not in alignment for me. And I was able to say like, what did you mean by that? And instead of...

Jane Ballard (14:14.107)
the old way.

Amanda (14:37.016)
You know, like I didn't get defensive. I didn't take it personally. I just wanted to explore what they meant so I could understand.

Jane Ballard (14:47.621)
And did she, how did she respond? Was she defensive or did she help you, did she clarify?

Amanda (14:54.702)
She was not defensive. She did clarify and it was all good.

Jane Ballard (15:02.029)
That's amazing. It's so simple yet so powerful to just ask a clarifying question rather than in that moment feeling so wounded and so hurt and shocked, almost like fight, flight, freeze, like maybe freezing and not even responding to it really, but then taking it with you and going home and ruminating about it for hours, not being able to sleep because you're trying to figure out.

Amanda (15:29.89)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jane Ballard (15:32.037)
what was meant by that and why was that said and I should have said this or if only I'd said this or all the things like.

Amanda (15:38.68)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (15:44.943)
The amount of ruminating that goes on for individuals who have somebody in their family who has kind of this antagonistic pattern of behavior or maybe even a self-centered or narcissistic pattern of behavior. I know that's a term that gets overused and I don't love labels, but I think sometimes they can feel very validating and empowering for people who have suffered for a long time.

And not to label the person, but to label the behavioral pattern, something that's actually observable and objective, like a behavioral pattern of invalidation or a behavioral pattern of criticism or a behavioral pattern of dismissiveness. People who are in relationships with individuals with these behavioral patterns tend to ruminate. And I've done this myself.

actually very recently contributing to insomnia. They tend to ruminate a lot trying to figure this stuff out and figure out how to make it better, how to make this person understand, how to get this person to meet their needs, their very justifiable reasonable needs for authentic connection and love. And the

The most liberating thing and the most devastating thing is when those individuals can realize that that person will never be able to do that.

and it's okay. It is very painful and it has to be grieved, but that person will never do that. And once you get to that point,

Jane Ballard (17:34.245)
and you give up hope, which is, we always think hope is a good thing. Not always. Once you give up hope, then the healing begins.

Amanda (17:38.318)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (17:44.034)
Yeah, then something new can be built, know, like something totally different and better.

Jane Ballard (17:48.135)
Yes, yes, and.

It sucks that that person will never be able to do these things for you, like love and connect with you in an authentic way and be attached and attuned. But once you've got that and you've accepted it and acknowledged it and allowed it to be the reality of the situation, then you can figure out how do I do that for myself and how do I create relationships and surround myself with a chosen family or a family, family members who can do that for me.

and who I can do that, who will receive that from me? Because I'm sure that in a lot of ways, people are trying to be attuned to that person too, and it's not working. what the closest thing that feels like attunement is almost like enabling or trying to fix that person or meet their emotional needs in some way.

Amanda (18:44.226)
Yeah, and I think all of this can begin with just, I think for so long I thought, I didn't think this, it was very subconscious, but I didn't actually say what I, what was in my heart or what I was thinking or what I wanted to say because it felt harsh or, you know, like I'm just not a super blunt person. Like I don't just say it like it is or whatever all the time.

Jane Ballard (19:12.421)
Yeah.

Amanda (19:14.286)
Like, but I think that we can say what we mean, but not say it mean. And that can be a beginning to, you know, healing these relationships and creating something new. If we just say what we're feeling from a really.

Jane Ballard (19:20.092)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (19:35.921)
like allow ourselves to be authentic and take up space. Like, and to make our needs known. I think the problem is, is that that person's response may be hurtful.

Amanda (19:39.66)
Yeah, from a heartfelt place.

Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (19:56.635)
there is still reward in knowing you've voiced your needs, you know, even if they don't then meet them.

Amanda (20:01.004)
Yeah, absolutely. And especially if we have stuck to saying what we mean from a good place. If there is any point in this where we start to feel vindictive or ugly, like might as well throw it out the window because we're not going to benefit that much. We need to bring as much love into this as possible.

Jane Ballard (20:29.903)
Right. And self-love too. Like, you don't have to be treated poorly by people who claim to love you. What was I going to say? I lost it. It'll come back.

Amanda (20:45.59)
Okay, I was just thinking, you know, if we say things kindly and the person reacts great, fantastic, if they have an ugly response or their feelings are hurt or whatever the thing is, I'm not saying that we don't have to care, but that is not our job to fix that. As long as we've been honest and approached it with love and care, their reaction or response is not something we have to be super concerned about.

Jane Ballard (21:15.687)
Well, and it also doesn't mean that you've done something wrong then that you need to apologize for. know, like what you may be sharing may actually...

Amanda (21:21.294)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (21:26.693)
be hard to hear and they may have some feelings about it. But that doesn't mean you did something wrong. It doesn't mean you were mean or selfish or unkind or whatever. That's just the reality that sometimes things have to be communicated that are painful for the other person to hear. And that can be an act of love is to share those things. I do think it's important to point out that

Amanda (21:28.654)
Yeah.

Amanda (21:36.152)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amanda (21:49.998)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (21:54.445)
in some relationships these patterns are so

I don't know, pervasive or ingrained, or I don't know what the right word is here. For me, I'm, you know, in a family relationship of mine, I have come to the place where I am beginning to accept that I can't go deep. I can't share.

and that when I do, it doesn't go well for anyone. And so I think that's important to point out too, is that for some people there will be family relationships where you need, like where the boundary has to be, I've accepted this person can't meet my need for authentic connection and love and attachment. And so I'm no longer going to point out when they hurt me.

I am probably going to feel hurt and I'm also going to not be surprised and I'm going to reevaluate how much contact I can have with that person. You know, if, if you've, if our listeners have ever heard of Dr. Romany, R-A-M-A-N-I, she is a psychologist who specializes in antagonistic patterns of behavior, also narcissistic patterns of behavior and kind of how to help

people heal from those relationships. And she talks about how oftentimes you need to get to a place where you don't go deep. You know, you don't justify, you don't explain, you don't excuse, you don't personalize, you just stay very surface level.

Amanda (23:46.924)
Yeah, yeah, I love what you're saying because what I thought of when you were talking is that it's such a privilege, you know, to be able to go deep with you. And if someone doesn't recognize that as being a privilege, then they don't deserve that privilege to go to have the honor of going that deep and knowing, you know, your heart and how you're feeling and your emotions. So, you know,

that is self-care by not, you know, crossing over into a deeper level with them.

Jane Ballard (24:25.349)
Yeah, I mean, that's so healing for me to hear you say that even because being like having a parent with those patterns of behavior where it's very dismissive and invalidating and there's no desire to go deep with me as the child leads to this belief that there's not really anything of value or worthy of sharing.

Amanda (24:47.438)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (24:54.673)
that my depth is whatever's deep about me is not good or valuable or worth anyone's time.

Amanda (24:54.926)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (24:59.384)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (25:06.499)
And so to have you value that is, you know, it feels like I'm being seen and like I do have value. Like I can trust myself that what I have to say matters, you know, like I think it matters, but I don't know because some people don't think it does. But really I have to remind myself that's not about me.

Amanda (25:16.43)
Absolutely.

Jane Ballard (25:32.367)
And there are people who can be attuned to me, like you are attuned to me right now, and who can care about what I have to say.

Amanda (25:38.008)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (25:41.91)
Yeah, a lot of times the people that, especially the people that we grew up with or parents or even friends we grew up with.

they probably sometimes won't be able to get us or understand us or even have an interest in it. And that's okay. know, like we, there's different groups of people in our lives for different purposes and that feel different needs. And, you know, if that's the case for someone that's listening, you know, don't give up on finding your people, you know, for sure.

Jane Ballard (26:09.031)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (26:20.049)
Yeah, it's possible.

Amanda (26:21.91)
And I, yeah, I think one of the best ways, especially if you're sober curious, the best way to find your people is to get plugged into a group of alcohol-free women or, you know, message Jane or I, and you will definitely find.

Jane Ballard (26:39.675)
Yeah, we'd be happy to share resources and.

Amanda (26:43.81)
Yeah, you'll definitely find the acceptance that you're looking for. Because it's a busy world and people, easy to feel like other people are selfish and don't take the time to listen or go deep with you.

Jane Ballard (27:02.715)
Yeah, or that nobody cares or yeah. And it seems like everybody has their people and you're the only one who doesn't. And that's just not true. What we see on the surface, there's usually so much more. You just never know what's happening in people's lives.

Amanda (27:04.994)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amanda (27:23.246)
That's really hard. Yeah, that's a really hard mindset to get past as thinking that everybody is plugged into a group or has this amazing friend group except for you. I definitely have felt that way before. And absolutely. I think the truth of that is, at least in my experience, my boys played select baseball for many years.

Jane Ballard (27:40.346)
yeah, me too.

Amanda (27:51.182)
And I was always friends with the moms on the team, but I always felt like there was this group and I wasn't a part of it. The truth looking back now is that I love deep conversation and a lot of, and so I was really part of the group. It just wasn't my group. was, they weren't my people. And my people are usually women who want to

Jane Ballard (28:15.239)
Yeah.

Amanda (28:20.61)
you know, have deep conversation about really important things.

Jane Ballard (28:23.835)
Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that they're like bad people or that you're better than them or vice versa. Just people have different interests and temperaments and things they enjoy talking about. You know, like I hate football and that's very anti-American culture, but I've tried so hard to like it and I can't. Tried my whole life and I can't.

Amanda (28:28.845)
Mm-mm.

Amanda (28:35.832)
Yeah.

Amanda (28:50.647)
I love that.

Jane Ballard (28:52.931)
And so people probably think I'm weird, but I just can't do it. I can't relate to that. You know, I'd rather talk about something else or do something else. You know, I just can't find, I can't find anything in me that cares about who wins the football game. And I definitely don't want to watch it.

Amanda (28:59.074)
Yeah, that's so funny.

Amanda (29:13.4)
Yeah, I totally get that. I've literally prayed to God to help me like football and I still don't like football. I really wish I did because my husband and boys love football, you know?

Jane Ballard (29:20.743)
That is amazing.

Jane Ballard (29:27.547)
Yes, football season would be so fun if I loved that and it was on like all the time.

Amanda (29:33.53)
Yeah, and we could play fantasy football and all the things, but like, it's just not my thing.

Jane Ballard (29:38.425)
I could not be less interested in it.

Amanda (29:41.71)
Same. Yeah. And I feel the same way. It's like so many people love football. And I'm like, damn, I wish I would love to love football. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (29:43.388)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (29:49.599)
I I did. Yes. I mean, I wish yoga was as popular as football. I mean, that would be heaven. If everyone's talking about yoga all the time. I mean, yeah, I'm such a nerd, but.

Amanda (29:56.93)
Yeah.

Amanda (30:03.446)
No, I totally get that. So with you on your journey, being in your third year of sobriety, how would you say boundaries and relationships and all of those type of things have grown and transformed over the course of this time?

Jane Ballard (30:23.857)
Yeah, that's a great question.

One thing that I've noticed in myself is my tolerance to play along with the way things have always been and to kind of follow the unspoken family rules is really just gone. And I have to say that I've always been a little bit of a rebel.

Amanda (30:32.75)
Thank

Amanda (30:44.067)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (30:51.629)
but I just can't do it anymore. You know, I can't walk on eggshells. I can't pretend something is normal or that it doesn't hurt my feelings when it's not or when it does. And really one of the privileges of being a therapist is that you are learning about how to heal yourself as you're working with others.

Amanda (31:20.536)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (31:21.347)
And so the more I have worked over the years with people on how to communicate and how to set boundaries and how to handle different circumstances in their families, I've had the time to really reflect on my own and figure out how to communicate those things, know, like actual strategies of stating your feelings and describing events and describing behaviors and, you know,

Allowing that person to have their feelings and trying to understand them as well but also not subjecting yourself to You know unkind or unfair fighting styles So for me I've noticed that I just want everyone to be clear on what reality is Let's not pretend and and people don't like that. And so

Amanda (32:20.598)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (32:22.245)
I've noticed that I call out reality. It doesn't go well. It's very painful.

Amanda (32:31.426)
I love it. That's really good. Like, that's real talk. Like, let's not pretend. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (32:37.669)
Let's not pretend, let's just be what we are and it's okay. Just let me know what I want to know what to expect. I want know what the reality of the situation is and then I can handle it. But if we're pretending it's this thing, but it's really this other thing, I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that to maintain appearances or whatever.

Amanda (32:58.99)
That's a really good point. I love that. Because sometimes like on, for me, even though we've held up our side of the deal for our own self-worth and we've established a pattern that works, sometimes the other person will still be outwardly appearing like, or pretending that everything is a certain way or like we have this perfect relationship and all the things. And it's just, it's not reality.

Jane Ballard (33:29.017)
Right. Yeah.

Amanda (33:30.54)
Like you can keep up that appearance as long as you're not trying to do it with me. You know what I mean?

Jane Ballard (33:35.021)
Yeah, I'm not going to enable that. I'm not going to play into it and assist that person in maintaining this appearance or this status or this whatever that isn't deserved. you know, it's not, and what you said earlier about like, you need to be clear on your intentions. Like it's not to like hurt or be vindictive.

Amanda (33:38.264)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (34:02.19)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (34:03.687)
That's what I'm working on right now is that the boundaries that I'm setting are purely to keep me safe. They are not to prove a point. They are not to punish. They are not to withhold. They're not to hold accountable. They're not to communicate anything to the other person. They are purely to keep me safe. And that takes a lot of like energy and self honesty.

And so I'm gonna fail at that, but I'm gonna try really hard most of the time to do things purely because they keep me safe. if I'm doing it with vindictiveness or anger or whatever in my heart, I'm gonna really try to do some self-reflection and rethink how I respond to situations.

Amanda (35:00.492)
I love that. Absolutely. And I think that if we're coming at something from an angle of keeping ourselves safe, I think that is pretty safe ground, you know, because if especially like anybody like it's our birthright to feel safe, you know, like at a very minimum, we should feel safe. I think so many people think of safety as like physical safety, like

Jane Ballard (35:13.223)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (35:29.932)
you know, bad guys breaking into the house or whatever, you know, kidnapping or whatever, all the violent crimes. But safety to me is so much deeper than that. like emotional safety is everything. didn't realize actually probably until I alcohol free how unsafe I felt in a lot of situations. That was probably the first affirmation I ever used in my

Jane Ballard (35:34.939)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (35:43.099)
Yeah.

Amanda (35:58.668)
Sobriety journey is I am safe. I mean, I replayed that in my mind constantly. And, you know, I always come back to retreats, but retreats always help us to come home to ourselves and.

Jane Ballard (36:01.429)
Jane Ballard (36:15.171)
absolutely to be safe in our bodies.

Amanda (36:18.35)
Mm hmm. Yeah. And no worries or fears or I mean, I think it's vital to take some time, even if if it's not a retreat, whatever it is for you, but take some time to come home to yourself and and use that affirmation like I am safe. Like any time you have any kind of anything come up that doesn't feel comfortable feeling uncomfortable is to me.

equivalent to feeling unsafe. Like, and maybe that's not the case in all situations, but a lot of times if you're feeling uncomfortable, you just kind of put your hands on your heart and just like take a deep breath and just say like, I am safe. I am at ease. I have peace, know, and just it because a lot of times right before we're in that

Jane Ballard (36:49.287)
Absolutely.

Jane Ballard (37:08.655)
I love that.

Amanda (37:16.504)
before we're reminding ourselves that we're safe, when we're feeling unsafe and uncomfortable, we are in that fight, flight, freeze state. I think I lived my life in that for a long time.

Jane Ballard (37:24.048)
Absolutely.

Jane Ballard (37:28.177)
think a lot of people do. I mean, I think I did growing up. And when I say I'm gonna keep this boundary to keep myself safe, I think a lot of us would feel almost like gaslit if we said that to the other person and they would scoff and say, what do you mean you're not safe? But it's like, does your body, does your nervous system feel safe? Not do you think you're gonna be

Amanda (37:30.424)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (37:58.353)
beat up or whatever, which that could also be the reality. But even just can your nervous system be at rest around this person? And if not, that's a big clue. It's information for you to consider if your nervous system can't be at rest, what's happening here.

Amanda (38:20.878)
Yeah, red flag, huge, gigantic, enormous red flag if your central nervous system cannot feel ease around a person. Your body definitely keeps the score like the book says.

Jane Ballard (38:22.769)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (38:32.038)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (38:35.853)
It keeps the score. Yes, Bessel van der Kolk. Yes. Yeah.

Amanda (38:39.982)
Really like starting to listen to those clues and not just thinking that they're random, you know, like I think our bodies give us the answer. We know the answers even before we realize it.

Jane Ballard (38:48.38)
Right.

Jane Ballard (38:54.181)
Yes, and just check in with your body. So ways I might know my nervous system is activated, maybe my chest feels a little tight. This is a really odd one. I find that I'm like clenching my butt muscles and like relax your pelvic floor, relax your glutes, it's okay. You know, what's, what are, your shoulders up or can you relax them?

Amanda (39:15.278)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Amanda (39:23.948)
Yeah, absolutely. For me, I my whole body will go like completely like when I feel anxious or stressed or something's going on, my whole body tenses up. It's like my back, my neck. I everything is just like a board stiff like a board. And I think this is why Americans need lots of massages and have back problems because of the pressure that makes us like tense up quite literally.

Jane Ballard (39:40.433)
Yeah, like rigid.

Jane Ballard (39:45.849)
Yes!

Jane Ballard (39:52.037)
Yes. Yeah. So ways that you might know that your parasympathetic nervous system has been activated, you're in fight or flight, there's fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. I think a lot of times people don't know about the freeze and the fawn unless you're kind of in this field of wellness and you've studied it. You know, we all know about fight or flight. Like you're gonna, you're gonna fight.

Amanda (39:53.464)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (40:21.349)
whatever it is that is the threat or you're gonna flee from it. But freeze and fawn, I think we hear less about, and I think those are actually more common in family of origin type situations where it's not like this intense threat, like a house fire or an intruder or something like that, but it's almost like this emotional threat. And I think that's where you see freeze or fawn is where people will kind of dissociate and detach and...

Amanda (40:24.846)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (40:50.895)
just kind of barely be present. That's a way of freezing. Or even just kind of not, you know, someone hurts you, but you don't, you're almost in so much shock that you don't point it out or you don't respond to it. And then fun is trying to please, trying to placate that person, make them happy, you know, change their behavior.

Amanda (41:12.962)
Yeah, think freeze was definitely a go to for me. What about you? What do you think you're not? I think we all experience all of these at some point or another, but what do you think your initial? First reaction responses or what you have gone into most?

Jane Ballard (41:21.648)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (41:32.023)
That's funny because I was about to say freeze I would say in general it's freeze

Amanda (41:35.182)
you

Jane Ballard (41:41.103)
unless something's directed at me.

and then I'm probably gonna fight. And that probably got me in trouble growing up.

Amanda (41:52.674)
Yeah. But it was your way of protecting yourself.

Jane Ballard (41:53.669)
my mouth is gonna get the best of me.

Jane Ballard (41:59.269)
Yeah. Yeah. And it's not like I was an adult. I was a kid with a developing brain, you know?

Amanda (42:01.545)
and

Amanda (42:07.34)
Yeah, and all of those layers of self-protection or coping mechanisms, anytime that speaking to the listeners here, like anytime you guys hear us reference coping mechanisms and how maybe some of them aren't useful at this point in my life or your life, it's it's not that they're bad. It's you know, like all of those coping mechanisms serve a purpose. Like if if you're using a coping mechanism,

that maybe we've mentioned and it's working for you right now, that's okay, you know? And maybe at some point you'll not want that coping mechanism anymore and find something new that works.

Jane Ballard (42:43.943)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (42:51.033)
Absolutely. I mean, it's not like every coping mechanism I have in my life is healthy right now.

Amanda (42:56.914)
Mm-hmm. So as we've been talking, I've just what I'm hearing us say is that throughout being in the third year of sobriety, as the time goes by, we're getting more free, you know, like we're getting a little more free as time goes by and.

Jane Ballard (43:10.983)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, we're like, we're trusting ourselves to take up space.

Amanda (43:18.862)
Mm-hmm, a little more unwilling to accept.

what is unacceptable.

Jane Ballard (43:27.153)
Well, and even just to accept what is painful, you know, or what hurts us when we don't need to. Like if somebody needs to confront me for something I've done and they're going to do it respectfully, yes, please do. But we're not willing to accept mistreatment, I guess, because it's painful and it's not good. We value ourselves and we believe we have worth and we don't need to subject ourselves to that.

Amanda (43:30.882)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amanda (43:41.966)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (43:56.398)
Yeah, and I think everyone, I don't know this for sure, but this is just what I would suggest, is that we all have things that have been said to us or happened in our lives that have stuck with us and maybe not in the best way. Like for example, there was someone in my life when I was a teenager that referred to me as being jealous of someone else in our family and I carried that label.

for so long and I just realized like.

jealousy itself is a very human thing to feel at one point or another. And, you know, like, it's like the anger label, like, just because you feel angry sometimes doesn't mean you're an angry person. You know, we sometimes think if we portray this quality one time or occasionally that we become that quality. And, you know, it's like, no, we're all the qualities, regardless of whether or not we want to be like

Jane Ballard (44:35.898)
Absolutely.

Jane Ballard (44:55.015)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (44:59.111)
Yes.

Amanda (45:02.68)
Part of our humanness is being all of those things.

Jane Ballard (45:05.531)
Right, it's not part of our identity.

Amanda (45:08.184)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (45:10.243)
I like that. That's such a great reminder for everyone is that these things are not like we're not pathologizing coping skills that aren't perfectly healthy. You know, there's a reason there's a reason that that coping skill was developed that makes sense. And I think when we can look back, use that observing self and look back at our history, we can figure out

Amanda (45:24.398)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (45:40.551)
how and why we developed it and have so much compassion for that person who did. And then we can evaluate whether or not we want to keep using that coping skill. Maybe the cost has come to outweigh the benefit, whereas in the past the benefit outweighed the cost.

Amanda (46:00.664)
Yeah, absolutely. I was just thinking about, you know, with what you said, everyone probably is how they are. Like we've all been groomed in a certain way to be who we are. Like things have happened that made us into the person we are. And, you know, whenever it's helpful when dealing with a person that maybe is agitating or bothers us.

to think about like, and it takes us out of reacting. It takes us out of reactive mode. Start thinking about like, why this person might be how they are. What do you think, like just, know, bringing up questions in our minds, like, I wonder what life was like for them growing up or I wonder how they're like, I know that they're appearing to be.

Jane Ballard (46:35.429)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (46:49.381)
Yeah, what shaped this behavior?

Amanda (46:57.294)
this way right now but I'm wondering like how their heart actually is you know I wonder how

Jane Ballard (47:02.031)
Yeah, like they appear angry and mean right now, but what are they actually experiencing?

Amanda (47:09.39)
Yeah, like what are their thoughts like when they're laying in bed at night or when they're driving down the road by themselves? Like, we don't really know how a person is feeling.

Jane Ballard (47:18.479)
Hmm, that hits deep. Like not just what are their thoughts like in that moment, but what are their thoughts like in their private moments to themselves? What's their self talk like?

Amanda (47:26.38)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. What is their self-talk like? And we can imagine like everybody's got some negative self-talk.

Jane Ballard (47:37.005)
yeah, absolutely.

Amanda (47:40.942)
So, but yeah, with the new link that we're adding in the show notes, if anyone would like to send in a message to us and let us know where you're at on your sober journey, whether it's just starting out, you're one, two, three, 20, whatever it is, or just sober curious, we would love to hear from you guys.

Jane Ballard (48:07.781)
Yes, we would love to hear from you guys. Also a good resource if you want to learn more about some of these patterns of behavior that shape kind of your behaviors as you become an adult. I'm reading a book called The Power of Showing Up by Daniel Siegel. You've probably heard of him before. He also wrote The Whole Brain Child. And really the purpose of this book is

It's about, it's really a parenting book, but the crux of it is that in order to not repeat the same mistakes or I don't know, negative patterns or harmful patterns that you experience as a child, in order to not repeat those as a parent, there is so much hope. You are not destined to repeat them. And the way to make sure you don't repeat them is to actually look back

Get to know your own story like really look at your story and figure out how to create a coherent Accurate Narrative of that and a lot of times we've got to rewrite some things. We've got to recognize What was the old narrative or what is the narrative I have subconsciously right now? Let me get clear on that and then let me let me just go back and look at this

And maybe even work with a therapist or a good friend or if you're in a recovery group, you know, talking with people in your recovery group about it can be so instrumental.

Amanda (49:44.684)
Yeah, absolutely. And just that title, the power of showing up, that's definitely, that would be a great full episode for sure. But I mean, there is so much power in just showing up, like, and just show up and just be, you know, just, just exist there wherever you're showing up and whether that's for yourself or especially for like your family and your kids.

Jane Ballard (49:48.387)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (49:52.995)
Absolutely.

Jane Ballard (49:57.735)
just showing up.

Yes, absolutely.

Jane Ballard (50:12.581)
Yes, being attuned. What were you going to say?

Amanda (50:14.454)
I never really understood that very well until I met Matt and we, with the boys, my in-laws go out of their way to come to all of their games. I mean, they don't miss a beat. Like they show up for us for everything. And in the beginning of my marriage, like I wasn't used to that. So it felt really uncomfortable for me. And I didn't know if I wanted that.

And as the years have gone by, I've just realized how vital that has been and so important and

Maybe sometimes people might feel like they don't want you around, like you just, unless they specifically say, I don't want you here, like keep showing up for the people and they'll come around and cause it's that consistency, you know, of like big.

Jane Ballard (51:01.233)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (51:05.115)
Yes, the predictability that person is accessible and responsive and engaged.

Amanda (51:11.222)
and I can count on them always, you know? I just think that it's so important to show up for the people that we love, even if we're like totally uninterested in what it is that's going on, just keep showing up for people. And if you're not doing it, you can always start now.

Jane Ballard (51:12.657)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (51:28.327)
Absolutely.

You can always start now. Absolutely. Repair is so important. You it's not about being perfect and not making mistakes. It's about acknowledging a mistake and then apologizing, especially to your kids. You know, there are so many people, I have so many clients who have never heard an apology from a parent once.

Amanda (51:33.731)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (51:53.595)
You know, and so just going back and saying, you know what? I didn't handle that situation well. I didn't manage my anger well, and I regret saying those things to you. I'm so sorry.

Amanda (52:06.828)
Yeah, yeah. It's another precious gift that we get on this alcohol free journey is really having the opportunity to really be present with our kids and like we were talking about earlier, working on that attunement with them and their inner world. I think you said that earlier because you know sometimes what we see on the outside

Jane Ballard (52:28.699)
Yeah.

Amanda (52:33.932)
which we know very well is not always what's going on in the inside, you know?

Jane Ballard (52:37.735)
Right. That's my goal for this year. You know, in 2024, I did a lot of things and I'm happy and I'm proud of those things. But in the last couple months, I've realized that while that was great, I really wasn't as attuned to my kids as I like to be. And as somebody who went through childhood feeling invisible at times,

Amanda (53:01.165)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (53:07.491)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (53:08.411)
that's really painful for me to realize that I've maybe neglected being the parent that they need me to be. And that's where I think the balance comes in. And is it really success if you can't really do some of these basic fundamental things in life that you value? And that's where you look at cost benefit again. Like the cost is too high.

I've got to find some balance and attune to the people who are the most important people to me on the planet.

Amanda (53:46.414)
Absolutely. Like if let's say we work constantly and are striving, striving, striving for, you know, our kids' child, a total complete childhood, like until they're 18 and then we send them off into the world and we realize like we weren't able to equip them with basic life stuff, which they may get naturally, but the deeper stuff. Yeah. And like,

Jane Ballard (54:01.414)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (54:09.831)
Well, you weren't able to make them feel seen, you know?

Amanda (54:15.554)
doing work similar to what you and I do, we invest in people a lot. And so we wanna make sure that even though that is the job, know, like more than anything, we wanna invest in our kids and invest in their growth.

Jane Ballard (54:22.353)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (54:31.697)
We gotta make sure we have enough left to give to our kids too. Not that we're, we can't give everything to work and then they get the leftovers.

Amanda (54:36.696)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (54:42.06)
Yeah, absolutely. I worked a lot of hours when my kids were little. And I think if I were to get a do-over with my kids, one thing I would do is no matter what the financial situation, would work a lot less and spend a lot more time, you know, just being a mom to babies and toddlers and...

Jane Ballard (54:42.779)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (55:09.2)
Yes.

Amanda (55:10.936)
being in the moment, not thinking it's gonna last forever.

Jane Ballard (55:14.865)
Yes.

Amanda (55:17.174)
all of those type of things. Because then they'll be 18 and then, you know, it's great. Yeah, and no matter what the situation or circumstance ends up being, like, it's okay. It's totally fine, you know, I did work a lot when my kids were little and Miles and I are still extremely close.

Jane Ballard (55:22.021)
and they'll be in college before you know it.

Jane Ballard (55:32.711)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (55:38.075)
think he definitely feels seen and known and loved by you.

Amanda (55:43.367)
Yeah, as long as you know our intentions are good and we prioritize and show up for people then things always tend to work out.

Jane Ballard (55:53.03)
Yeah, I mean, I think like prioritizing your own well-being and your own self-awareness, like this is why it's not selfish, is because when you're prioritizing your well-being and you have the ability to prioritize self-awareness, then you can observe yourself doing these things and pull back and be like, okay, hold on a second. This has somehow gotten out of balance and I need to reevaluate here.

Amanda (55:59.192)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (56:17.518)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I with the couple of episodes that we've done, I we've talked a lot about busyness and achieving and go go go. And and then we've also talked about the opposite of that, which is just being still existing and just just kind of quiet time. And I it just brought to mind like yesterday, even for me, I was

Jane Ballard (56:35.707)
Yeah.

Amanda (56:47.544)
just very list oriented, gotta check some stuff off the list, check, check, check, check. And then at the end of the day, there was still some more stuff to do. I'm like, good Lord, like I am exhausted. And I don't think any of this stuff is important. You know what I mean? Like not so important that I need to kill myself doing it. Yeah, absolutely. So sometimes those lists can be exhausting and

Jane Ballard (56:57.873)
Hahaha.

Jane Ballard (57:04.197)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (57:08.251)
devote your whole day and be exhausted.

Amanda (57:17.442)
some of the stuff on them maybe isn't even stuff that we have to do right away.

Jane Ballard (57:22.353)
So true. It's not as important as we think it is.

Amanda (57:26.86)
Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to ask that everyone follow the podcast and leave us a review. It would be, it's very, yeah, in the podcast world, it is really helpful if we can get follows and reviews just so we can see how we're doing and get any feedback from you guys that you have on what you'd like to hear in the future or.

Jane Ballard (57:38.981)
We would be so grateful.

Jane Ballard (57:55.515)
Yeah, yes, we really, like we have been saying in our intro and outro, like we really are grateful for all of you and we love this community of alcohol-free people. And I know there's so many of you out there that we haven't even had the chance to connect with individually. We'd love to hear from you. Drop us a line, share your story. Click the link and send us a question or just drop us a line. Like.

Amanda (57:55.596)
what you may have done different.

Jane Ballard (58:25.223)
follow review helps us get our message out there to more people who can benefit and who are maybe earlier in this journey or considering this journey, but it's scary and it's intimidating. our hope is that we can be a light and provide information and hope and community to people who are just starting and people who have been on this path for decades.

There's something here for everyone. So thank you and we just wish you all the best.

Amanda (58:54.722)
Yeah.

Amanda (59:03.938)
Yep, we'll see you next time.