S1 E8 How to Change Your Relationship with Anxiety: Simple Evidence Based Strategies for Reframing Negative Thoughts

Jane (00:03.249)
Hello, Amanda. I am so glad you're back on. I missed you last week.

Amanda (00:08.738)
Good morning. Yes, I'm so happy to be back too. I was, I hated that I missed last week, but so glad you got to interview your best friend and I know that was so much fun.

Jane (00:18.521)
Yes, yes, we had so much fun getting to catch up. And it's funny as she was sharing her story with early drinking, it's like, oh yes, I was actually there with you. So it was kind of funny.

Amanda (00:32.674)
Yeah, that is so cool that you guys both ended up alcohol free.

Jane (00:36.125)
I know I was thinking that too. It just, um, makes me happy. And I actually, it's funny, you know, it's so vulnerable putting yourself out here in this way. But I randomly got a Facebook message from a guy that I went to high school with that, I mean, we haven't talked in decades and he is 63 days alcohol free and said he had just gotten back on Facebook and had found some of my reels and listened to the podcast and that he could.

relate and you know, that just made it stuff like that makes it so worth it. And it's so affirming that there's meaning in putting yourself out here like this.

Amanda (01:17.85)
Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, even when you're not hearing anything from people, but you're just, you're just sharing your story and being vulnerable. There's always people that are listening, even if they're not commenting or messaging or even liking. I personally am a heart liker. I heart like everything on social media that I like, but not that is not how everyone is. And some people are

Jane (01:37.729)
Attitude, yes.

Amanda (01:43.51)
you know, just in the background, but it's definitely getting a message across for sure.

Jane (01:48.289)
Yes, yeah. So we have been wanting to talk a little bit about anxiety. You and I, we were chatting recently about how

emotions are one of the main things that people drink to manage sometimes without even realizing it. And one of the most common emotions or mental states even that people try to tame or tone down is anxiety. And so I wanted to talk a little bit, as a therapist, that's one of.

the things that I see every single day. And anxiety is a normal, healthy state. It's not always disordered, it's a normal, healthy state. And so kind of changing our relationship to anxiety can be an integral part of living an alcohol-free life or sober curious life. And so thought we'd pop on here and give some tools to our listeners.

Amanda (02:48.37)
Yes, I love this topic. Anxiety has definitely been a part of my life all of my life. I did not realize it, you know, growing up that, you know, it didn't have the label of anxiety yet, but I think I was, I think I've always been anxious about everything or most things. So this is a really great topic.

Jane (03:00.774)
Right.

Jane (03:07.3)
Mm-hmm.

I agree. Yeah. I think that my temperament lends itself to anxiety. I've talked before about this, but as a kid, I was very shy. I was very attached to my mom. I was always by her side. I was like her little shadow, she would tell me. And...

You know, I don't know that, like shyness and social anxiety aren't one and the same, and I think they often go hand in hand, because as a shy person or someone who's more reserved temperamentally, when you put yourself out there with a large group of people that you aren't familiar with necessarily, it can feel hard. And so just that tension and that self-regulation leads to anxiety.

Amanda (03:58.154)
Yeah, for sure. I think for me, fear and anxiety, especially as a kid, were highly linked together. Growing up with my grandma, I always had this deep rooted fear that something was going to happen to her because she was much older than any other mom. And so I just was terrified that she was gonna die. And...

Jane (04:17.233)
Yeah.

Amanda (04:24.966)
And I think that was the root of my anxiety growing up. And then also just being on the playground with other kids and all the things caused anxiety for me.

Jane (04:29.009)
Yeah.

Jane (04:35.189)
Yeah, yeah, being accepted and well-liked and having people and connections with friends, all those things are so important as a kid.

Amanda (04:44.874)
I wish I had known then what I know now, like about how to, it's so hard to teach a kid that, cause they just think this is nonsense, but there really are some really great ways to, you know, regulate ourselves and to calm the anxiety naturally.

Jane (04:48.697)
Yes.

Jane (04:55.334)
Right.

Jane (05:05.501)
For sure, yeah. And I think one of the biggest things that leads to anxiety and then keeps us stuck in anxiety is thinking, how we think, how this internal dialogue that we almost constantly have going on in our minds. And that has the ability to either, I mean, really to change your life. The way that you view the world, like there are

we don't view the world in this objective way. We're viewing it through the lens of our thinking. And if our thinking is open and optimistic and curious, that can lead to a lighter view of the world. If our thinking is fearful and closed and kind of hypervigilant and looking for threats.

that can lead to kind of a darker, more narrow view of the world. And so our thinking really is powerful.

Amanda (06:07.558)
Yeah, and just the view of ourselves as well. I was laying in bed and I had some situations during my workday that got me thinking about some things in my past. And so I was laying in bed and 10 years ago, if I had been thinking about this particular situation, I would have gone into stress and anxiety and shame and guilt. But last night I noticed myself like

removing myself from my body, kind of, and just watching it from up here and being like, oh, like, I get it, I understand, I have compassion for you instead of like, shame on you and I can't believe that happened and you know, just all the things. So yeah, I'm excited to do this little session with you today.

Jane (06:40.622)
Yeah.

Jane (06:56.869)
Yes, I love that. Yes. And what you just described really is a therapeutic tool from acceptance and commitment therapy called diffusion. And diffusion is creating space from our thoughts. And so if you have a thought that, oh, I can't believe I did that, that was so horrible. You know, you are fused with that thought. That thought is like.

right in your face, like that is actual reality. But the way you described kind of floating above it and looking at it from an outside perspective, you created space and you're able to have self-compassion. So sometimes just using the prefix, I notice I'm having the thought that, that tool can help us create some distance and zoom out and see, oh, this is just a thought I'm experiencing, this isn't actual objective reality.

Amanda (07:51.914)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So powerful. Yeah. And I was as I was thinking and watching my life from above, I kind of took myself or I started to view myself as like the inner child. And like, what had I gone through in my life that led me to these points? And, you know, just allowing myself to believe like you were doing the best you could at the time.

Jane (07:53.305)
Yeah, I love that.

Jane (08:14.149)
Yes.

Jane (08:18.905)
Yes. And that version of you was not the 30-s

wife and mother and coach who has wisdom and life experience. That was a much younger version of yourself. And sometimes I think we hold ourselves to these standards that we would hold ourselves to today, but we're forgetting like, Oh, I was like 15 then, or I was 21 and sometimes even just taking a picture out and looking at yourself at that time period, you can be like, Oh my gosh, that was a child.

Amanda (08:44.834)
Yeah.

Jane (08:54.693)
Like of course she was doing the best she could and didn't know exactly how to handle this situation. Yeah, yeah. So when it comes to anxiety, I think there's a couple of really important points to remember. One is that anxiety is normal and healthy and we need anxiety to survive as humans. We need to...

Amanda (09:00.194)
Yeah, absolutely.

you

Jane (09:20.441)
be able to plan ahead and prepare for potential danger. Anxiety becomes problematic when we use avoidance excessively. You know, we make our lives small and we avoid things because of uncertainty or risk. And then also safety behaviors are another tool that we intuitively develop that can become problematic.

And so in a social setting, for example, safety behaviors might look like having your phone out so you can have something to look at if you feel awkward or having a drink in your hand or drinking to kind of numb whatever emotions are coming up. It might also be sometimes people like to have their back to the wall so they can see.

or they have a friend with them. They don't want to show up to a party alone, so they have a friend. And so safety behaviors aren't necessarily negative in and of themselves, but they often keep us limited and kind of prevent us from realizing that we can go into these situations and actually thrive and function better than we're predicting that we would be able to.

Amanda (10:39.71)
Yeah, like what can we do to prepare ourselves for what we're about to walk into and feel like our best selves? How can we show up as our best selves, even though this has potential to be a stressful situation?

Jane (10:47.664)
Mm-hmm.

Jane (10:54.385)
Absolutely. And I think the other thing is, is going from being on the defensive to the offensive. When we're on the defensive, we're like, oh no, what can I do to protect myself? I need to look out for these potential threats. And so in a social situation that might be looking around like who's gonna accept me, who looks easy to talk to, can I join in to this conversation?

Whereas being on the offensive is kind of like, you know what, bring on the awkward conversations. I'm just gonna go up and I'm gonna see what happens. And you know, I'm gonna be playful with this and it's an experiment. And you know, what will it be like if I go in here completely sober and I don't know anyone and I'm just gonna go up and talk to these people and kind of see what happens. And almost like having this playfulness with it and this openness to whatever happens and trusting that you can cope with it.

Amanda (11:53.29)
Yeah, when I think of being on the offensive side of it, I really think of like feeling joy. And when I think of being on the defensive side of it, I think of feeling a little bit miserable.

Jane (11:59.025)
Yes.

Jane (12:04.141)
Yes. Yeah, like just waiting for something negative to happen. Right? So this kind of belief that, oh, I have the ability to cope, that's a really important piece of anxiety. There's this concept called the risk resource model that the idea is that our anxiety,

Amanda (12:08.93)
Mm. Yeah.

Jane (12:31.353)
becomes high when we overestimate the risk or we overestimate the threat and we underestimate our ability to cope. And so that might look like, well, I'm gonna go to this party and no one is going to want to talk to me. And that's just gonna feel horrible. I'm not gonna be able to stand that. And I'm gonna feel miserable and I'm probably gonna have a panic attack and have to go like hide in the bathroom.

Amanda (12:51.009)
Yeah.

Amanda (13:00.886)
Yeah, and I guess on the other side of that, you could go into the party with knowledge that I'm gonna go talk to these people in particular, because I feel like that they're fun to talk to and easy to talk to, and I've had conversations with them in the past, and they're really nice.

Jane (13:16.485)
Yes. And so you're not overestimating the threat in that situation. In that situation, you're saying, no, I've got a plan. And this is what I'm going to do. And even if it doesn't work out, I'll figure out a plan B. Yeah.

Amanda (13:29.31)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So one thing, um, when I was sober curious before I quit drinking, um, a scenario I had in my head is that everyone is going to think I'm an alcoholic. And so that thought literally kept me drinking for a while because I was like not down with the label. So I was

Jane (13:51.493)
Yes?

Right. So there was this concept kind of before the sober curious movement took hold that people who are sober, they must be sober because they had a big problem and they're an alcoholic. And so you had this thought, oh my gosh, people are going to think I'm an alcoholic if I quit drinking.

Amanda (14:12.938)
Yeah. So can you kind of walk me through that like as if I were one of your patients and how we could, you know, change my mindset on that fear of worrying about people thinking that I'm an alcoholic?

Jane (14:25.298)
Yeah.

Jane (14:32.133)
Absolutely. So one thing that's important to remember is that it's not necessarily the situation that causes someone to feel a certain way. It's how they think about the situation.

So kind of a classic example of this is, let's say you're walking down the street and on the other side of the street, you see somebody who looks familiar. And so you smile and wave and you call their name and they just look straight ahead and they keep walking. So that's the situation. One thought might be, oh wow, she must be really mad at me. I wonder why she is totally ignoring me.

And then the emotion that would come from that would be fear, anxiety, dread, maybe some guilt. Another way of looking at that situation could be, well, I bet she just didn't see me. She looked really busy and kind of preoccupied. You know, maybe I'll, I'll shoot her a text later and tell her I saw her. And then the emotion from that thought would be more just neutral, maybe a little disappointed that you didn't get to see your friend.

Amanda (15:44.014)
Yeah.

Jane (15:44.461)
And so for you, the situation would be, I'm thinking about letting go of alcohol, releasing that from my life, and letting people know that I don't drink anymore. That's the situation. And then this initial thought was, well, people are probably just gonna think I'm an alcoholic and judge me. So what emotion comes up or came up for you back then when you had that thought, people are gonna think I'm an alcoholic.

Amanda (16:14.798)
fear of judgment, fear of non-acceptance. That would be the biggest one, I think, like as people we like, we're made to connect. And we, as people also need to be accepted by some people at least. And so I think there was this very real, genuine fear that I was no longer going to be accepted.

Jane (16:27.75)
Yes.

Amanda (16:43.85)
And I would say those were the main ones. And I guess there was some fear around image. What will, how will they look at me? What will they think about me? What will they say about me?

Jane (16:50.872)
Mm-hmm.

Jane (16:55.003)
Yeah.

Jane (16:59.533)
Yes, so lots and lots of different thoughts related to the label of alcoholic that led to fear and anxiety, kind of telling yourself a story about what the future is gonna look like. Yeah. Okay, so let's pretend I'm talking to Amanda a couple of years ago and you're saying, well, if I quit drinking, people are gonna think I'm an alcoholic. So what makes you think that thought is true?

Amanda (17:12.926)
Yeah, for sure.

Amanda (17:30.536)
Well...

I know that a lot of people that quit drinking go to Alcoholics Anonymous. And that is not my journey, but I just have this fear that people are their first reaction is going to be that something terrible happened. And

And she, I don't know why I feel this way, but I just have this deeply rooted fear that people will think that I'm an alcoholic and that my kids have had a terrible life because of it. And all of those types of things.

Jane (18:03.313)
Yeah.

Jane (18:10.797)
Yeah, like something shameful must have happened. Okay. So is there any evidence to suggest that people will say that about you? Like has anything like that happened before or have you heard people say that about other people?

Amanda (18:16.034)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (18:27.934)
Well, I did know this other, not she's not a personal friend, but I know this other girl that quit drinking and she just in small talk, I've heard people say like refer to her as like, you know, the sober girl. And I've heard little hints of people saying like, do you think she's an alcoholic? And so just little things like that.

Jane (18:51.617)
Yes.

Yeah, yeah, I think we've all experienced kind of like a, just the cultural belief that if someone quit drinking, it's because they're an alcoholic and something bad happened. So on the flip side, any evidence to suggest that maybe that thought isn't true, that people wouldn't automatically assume you're an alcoholic.

Amanda (19:07.659)
Yeah, for sure.

Amanda (19:20.486)
Yeah, I mean, I feel like we are in a new culture that is unique. And I'm really grateful for that. Um, I think if this were something that happened 20, 25 years ago, that it may be accurate to say that most people that are sober for a reason are probably an AA. But now.

I've found that there are.

a lot of different ways to quit drinking. And a lot of those are not alcoholics anonymous. Now I do think that's a great place for some people. And if that works for you, that's great too. But for me, I just wanted a group of women that also were living pretty normal lives and drink too much wine at night sometimes. And that was the main situation.

Jane (20:18.106)
Yeah.

Amanda (20:21.358)
and that nothing horrible had necessarily happened in their life. I wanted to connect with women like that. And I had seen women like that on social media. And also I looked up famous people that don't drink. And there are quite a few like Jennifer Lopez. Yeah. So I would say that's my evidence.

Jane (20:39.697)
Yes, there are, yes. Yeah, okay, so there, okay. So we're wanting to reframe this thought. People will think I'm an alcoholic. So what's another way to look at that?

Amanda (21:01.206)
I have given up alcohol or I've removed alcohol for my life as a way to be healthier. I like to, you know, drink smoothies and eat salads and do yoga and finishing off the day with a bottle of wine was just not, it was no longer part of my health routine.

Jane (21:09.561)
Yeah.

Jane (21:22.041)
Yeah, like that doesn't align. That's incongruent with the way you value taking care of your body and your mind and your spirit.

Amanda (21:30.474)
Yeah. Another way would be like.

say I did drink on a Friday night or a Thursday night or whatever night of the week and the next morning I woke up or I didn't wake up normal like I would normally wake up early in the morning and be able to fix breakfast for my kids and you know hug them before they go out the door to school or whatever the situation um I could reframe it and say that being alcohol-free allows me to

wake up and cook breakfast for my kids and love them in the way that I want to.

Jane (22:08.729)
Yeah, I love that. So this next set of questions, I think these can be, these are key for when we're predicting a bad outcome. So catastrophizing, fortune telling, which is the, if you like name the thinking, the specific thinking trap, people will think I'm an alcoholic. We would call that fortune telling.

So the three questions are, what's the worst that could happen? And then with that question, how would I cope with that? Because we often just think we couldn't cope. And then what's the best that could happen? And what's most likely to happen? So for you, let's say you quit drinking and people say, yeah, she's an alcoholic. What's the worst that could happen if that thought is true? And how would you cope with that?

Amanda (22:47.406)
Good questions.

Amanda (22:52.91)
Thank you.

Amanda (22:58.922)
Well, say that is the worst that could happen and that it actually does happen. Perhaps, you know, everybody goes on with their lives and assumes Amanda's an alcoholic and maybe one of my kids' friends also, friend's parents also has a similar situation but is continuing to drink and is having a lot of problems in their family because of the alcohol.

And said child has heard, I heard so and so's mom is an alcoholic, but in their little mind, they're like, but she's not drinking anymore, you know? And said mine, he's like, but my parents, they drink every night, you know? That could be another situation or it could be that people just think that and that's just all there is to it.

Jane (23:56.725)
Yeah, yeah, like you just kind of have to let go of what other people are going to think.

Amanda (24:01.386)
Yeah, and life just totally goes on.

Jane (24:04.217)
Yeah, yeah. So really, the worst case isn't actually as bad as you're imagining. Yeah. So what's the best that could happen?

Amanda (24:11.787)
Right.

Amanda (24:16.546)
The best that can happen is, you know, I have an amazing group of women that I get to do life with that are also alcohol-free. And we do really cool things like go on yoga retreats and have a freaking blast together because we're both on the same page. We both have realized that we don't need, or both all of this group of women have decided we don't need alcohol to live our best lives.

Jane (24:30.289)
Yes.

Amanda (24:44.894)
and I just get to do life with these people. I get to bring a new energy into my family that is excited about life and has goals. Not saying that people that drink don't have goals, but for me, I'm definitely more goal-oriented as an alcohol-free woman. And yeah, best case scenario is...

Jane (25:06.828)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (25:13.935)
I just live my best life.

Jane (25:15.717)
Yeah, yeah, it's better than you can imagine. And what is the most likely scenario? What's most likely to happen? Yeah, yeah. And I think with most fortune telling anxious thoughts, usually,

Amanda (25:18.317)
Thank you.

Amanda (25:26.742)
all those good things.

Jane (25:38.905)
What's most likely to happen is a lot closer to the best case scenario than the worst case. We tend to confuse possible and likely. Like yes, this worst case scenario is possible, but is it likely? Probably not.

Amanda (25:53.534)
Yeah. And I think also maybe, maybe that worst case scenario is going to be true for 10% of the town that I live in. Maybe those people will, yeah, maybe they will continue to hang out on Friday nights and get drunk and talk about how Amanda Cable is sober now. You know what I mean? And if, and at this point in my sobriety, I'm like, you know, they're doing me a favor, because I'm a recovery coach. And so like, that's great marketing.

Jane (26:01.901)
Yeah, some people will think that.

Jane (26:10.23)
Yes.

Jane (26:22.463)
Yes. Get your name out there for people to reach out to you when they decide your life is looking pretty good.

Amanda (26:28.554)
Yeah, because remind me of the statistic of people that are, I believe there is a statistic about how many people are at least sober, curious, or would like to drink less. There's a pretty decent percentage of people. I don't remember what it is.

Jane (26:41.85)
Yeah.

Jane (26:46.285)
I don't remember what it is either, but my guess is that it's more than half of those people.

Amanda (26:51.858)
Yeah, because it's not doing anyone any favors.

Jane (26:56.961)
No, no, you know, I was actually listening to a podcast. I don't want to get too far off the subject, but talking about dynorphin, which is the opposite of an endorphin and that after two drinks and your body starts feeling that initial euphoria after two drinks, that no longer happens. And your body is trying to reach homeostasis. And so it starts excreting dynorphin.

which causes feelings of dysphoria, melancholy, anxiety. And so really anyone who's ingesting more than two drinks on a relatively regular basis can't be feeling good.

Yeah. OK. Yes. So I know we need to be mindful of time because you have a work call in a few minutes. But going back to our testing your thinking questions, what could happen if you changed your thinking? Let's say that you have this pattern of mind reading and fortune telling and imagining people thinking negative things about you. What could happen if you changed that thinking?

Amanda (27:40.582)
Yeah, I did that for plenty of years. Ha ha.

Amanda (28:08.138)
My whole life could change because say, I'm in this routine of having horrible thoughts, just negativity all the way around about myself. But I decide I become aware because I'm surrounded by women on a mindful journey who remind me and lead the way so that I can know what to do, so that we can all know what to do.

So when a negative thought pops in my mind, I take that thought captive and I realize that, we don't live there anymore. And so I'm gonna replace that with some truth, which is whatever the positive is at that moment.

Jane (28:48.218)
Yeah.

Jane (28:57.081)
Yes. And sometimes it's a matter of saying, you know what, is this thought entirely accurate? No. Is this thought a fact? No. Is this thought helpful? No. Well, then let's let it go.

Amanda (29:10.871)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, just choosing to believe the best about ourselves and everyone else instead of the worst, you know, and going back to some of those questions, I don't remember exactly what they were, but...

Jane (29:16.217)
Yes.

Amanda (29:26.214)
One of the best case scenarios is choosing to live an alcohol-free lifestyle helps me to release anger, from relationships that I've had a lot of anger in. And reframing my brain, my thoughts is just like, okay, this isn't serving us anymore. Let's move along to the next positive thought and change things up.

Jane (29:43.182)
Mm-hmm.

Jane (29:52.773)
Let's, yeah, let's find a new way. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, in the beginning, this process of learning to reframe thoughts can feel really tedious and hard, but with practice, it will become something that you can do within a split second of being like, oh wait, I know what this is, this is an anxious thought.

it's not helpful, I'm gonna let this go. And you know what? If people think you're an alcoholic, like that's actually...

Amanda (30:24.299)
Yeah.

Jane (30:30.797)
an opportunity for you to learn to distance yourself and detach from what other people might be thinking and to just radically choose the path that is right for you regardless of how others feel about it, because nobody else has to live your life. You're the only one who has to live this life and you've got to live it for yourself and do what's best for you.

Amanda (30:56.65)
Yeah. So some really good advice would be, you know, the next time we're having a negative thought, just bring some awareness to the thought and tell yourself we don't live there anymore or however you'd like to say that and choose a different thought and give yourself so much grace.

Jane (31:14.17)
Yeah.

Jane (31:18.874)
Yeah.

Jane (31:22.321)
Absolutely, yes, it's a process and, you know, nobody's gonna learn this overnight and we all need grace. Yeah, yeah, so I like how you said that, like simple steps of notice the thought, name the thought and then choose a new one, choose a different one that serves you better.

Amanda (31:25.093)
Thank you.

Amanda (31:30.583)
Yes.

Jane (31:47.068)
Yeah.

All right, well, Amanda, thank you so much for kind of going through this testing your thinking process with me today. I think it will be helpful for others just to kind of hear what it looks like to reframe a thought and kind of what are some helpful tools for challenging thoughts. So I appreciate that.

Amanda (32:10.238)
Yeah, and if anybody has any challenging thoughts that they would like to work through, we would love to hear what those are and either bring you on the podcast to talk through those or if you wanna just send it in and we will literally talk through it together for you.

Jane (32:19.729)
Yes.

Jane (32:27.813)
Absolutely, we would love that. All right. Well, I'll talk to you soon. Thank you to all of our listeners. We love you guys.

Amanda (32:38.434)
Bye.