S1 E6 Healing from Shame, Taking Up Space and Embracing Sober Sex with Therapist + Coach, Allison Guilbault

Jane Ballard (00:02.416)
All right, Allison, I am so happy that you have joined us today on the Mindful Sobriety podcast. Tell us, tell us a little bit about you.

Allison (00:14.136)
Yes, thank you so much. I'm so excited. So my name is Allison. I am a licensed therapist and I specialize in anxiety and trauma and in sex and intimacy. So I've been doing that for several years now. I mostly see women and kind of one of my big passion points is that I like to help women see their worth, rebuild their confidence, find their empowerment.

And you know, in a lot of my experiences, I've come to see just, you know, how poor a woman's self-talk can be and how it can really inhibit their lifestyle. So, and their decisions, what kind of relationships they have. So, you know, the last few years, that's been kind of my jam. I've been out here trying to post some positivity and help women reconnect to all the good stuff that makes them them.

Jane Ballard (01:10.18)
Yeah, that is awesome. Amanda and I have been so excited to have you on here. Just last week, we were talking about marriage and the alcohol-free lifestyle and how that can impact intimacy. And you happen to specialize in sex and intimacy. So this is just the perfect fit. We're so excited to have you.

Allison (01:33.968)
Thank you so much. Yes, so I love talking about being alcohol-free. I think it's extremely important. I am on my own alcohol-free journey. About, let's say like four years ago, it was right after COVID, I had been kind of grappling with the idea of just like, maybe booze isn't really showing up for me very well. And that was really scary. And it was like in the COVID world where...

Jane Ballard (01:56.784)
Mm-hmm.

Allison (02:02.772)
I own some bars, my husband owns some bars, and we had free access to booze, right? Our bar was closed down. And so we would go and like pick up a case of wine and bring it home with us. And I really realized in that time that alcohol really just wasn't showing up for me very well anymore. And you know, I have four degrees in mental health. And something that has sort of blown my mind is...

Jane Ballard (02:23.377)
Yeah.

Allison (02:32.816)
no one in any part of my training really taught me the effects of alcohol on anything other than sort of addiction. Like I had a really good archetype of like, what does alcoholism look like? What is alcohol abuse look like? But I really didn't have any kind of a framework for, you might not have an alcohol dependency problem and it's still be blowing up your life. And yeah.

Jane Ballard (02:43.853)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (02:50.092)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (02:59.056)
That is such an excellent point. Like for me with in my education and psychology and clinical social work, what I heard was the disease model of addiction that there are normal people and then there are these people with the disease, the select few with the disease who just can't drink, but everyone else is fine. Go ahead and have at it.

Allison (03:23.628)
Yeah, exactly that. Exactly that. And you know, my drinking lifestyle had changed over the course of 25 years-ish, right? I started probably in my, you know, when I went to college and really drink so much in high school, but it kind of took a full effect after that. But you know, even something like a hangover, right? Like I had this like very coined idea of what a hangover is. It's someone who's like, you know, throwing up, they can't get out of bed, they have this hard, they need lights off.

And for me, that's not what it was showing up as. I was a totally functioning person. I could go to work, you know, at that time when I was really starting to have these ideas of like, maybe this isn't working for me. I was virtual, right? I was doing virtual therapy. So I could wear pajama pants at the bottom and just like kind of roll into my bed and do therapy. But what I was starting to notice is just how anxious I was feeling. And just like...

Jane Ballard (04:06.812)
Yeah.

Allison (04:18.34)
waking up at two o'clock in the morning, having shakes, feeling dehydrated, panicking about what I had done the night before, even though at this time I was at home. I did nothing, I didn't send any crazy texts, I didn't walk out of a bar. And even through my whole drinking career, I was a pretty tame drunk. Which...

Jane Ballard (04:28.281)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (04:38.069)
Yeah.

Allison (04:39.264)
I almost think made it a little bit harder to quit, right? Because I would tell people like, hey, you know what? I think maybe I'm gonna chill. I'm gonna take a break. I might even think about giving up alcohol altogether. And the most common response I got was, you know, but why? Like you're fine, right? You're a good time. You don't have a problem. There's no problem here. And it really kept me stuck, right? Because I didn't have any other model of someone who was just picking their wellness or picking like a better life. So.

Jane Ballard (04:53.656)
Like, what's the problem here?

Jane Ballard (05:07.992)
Right. There was no conversation about that. It's like, you know, if you haven't hit rock bottom and you're not powerless over this substance, then there's really nothing to be done. Maybe try to moderate a little bit more, you know, but that's, that's about it.

Allison (05:24.216)
Yeah, and the moderation was exactly what I tried to do. So, you know, the world reopened, the bars reopened. Like I said, I own a bar, so I was immediately chucked back into, you know, the bar lifestyle. And I was just like, well, I can do this. I can moderate, right? I don't need to quit. That would be crazy. I can just cut back. And something that I realize now, but didn't realize then, was just how many rules I was creating for myself. And they were all really arbitrary, right? Like, okay, I'll only drink on Saturday, not a Tuesday.

Jane Ballard (05:35.385)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (05:48.793)
Mm-hmm.

Allison (05:54.412)
I only have three glasses of wine. No, okay, forget it. I'll just have beer, no wine today. And sometimes in psychology, we call it intermittent reinforcement. Sometimes I would nail it and it'd feel really good. It's like, I said I was only gonna have two glasses of wine and a martini and I did that. Yay me. Most of the time it was not that case. I was really waking up and being like, how did I do this again? And I have a mentor.

Jane Ballard (06:04.577)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (06:17.142)
Yeah.

Allison (06:24.412)
in this whole alcohol-free journey. And something she really highlighted for me is that I was losing trust in myself, right? That I was making these big commitments to myself and I couldn't follow through. And I didn't really realize the gravity that extended beyond just alcohol, right? Like I was thinking like, well, if I can't even give a booze, right? How am I gonna write a book? How am I gonna start a podcast? How am I gonna start my own practice?

Jane Ballard (06:36.877)
Yeah.

Allison (06:51.512)
And I didn't see that correlation. It was like very subconscious, very, very subtle. But now I do see it. I do see like the marked difference between the before and after of just how much I can like believe in myself now.

Jane Ballard (06:51.768)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (06:55.723)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (07:04.972)
Yeah. So circling back to the intermittent reinforcement, that interval reinforcement is actually the strongest form of reinforcement. So if you think about slot machines, and most of the time, you're not getting what you wanted, but every now and then you do, and it keeps you coming back, because you know you can do it. You know it's possible that you can go have your two drinks and be done and have a successful night of drinking. And so there's this subconscious illusion

Allison (07:09.68)
Mm.

Allison (07:15.087)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (07:33.892)
well, then I'll just do that every single time. But that doesn't, like, that's not what alcohol is designed to do. Alcohol is a substance that causes craving tolerance where we need more to get the same effect. And, you know, it's not a problem with the human body. It's the way human body responds to that substance.

Allison (07:40.536)
Thank you.

Allison (07:58.012)
That's right. Yeah, exactly.

Jane Ballard (08:00.108)
And then I think that realizing ultimately that what it came down to was an ability to trust yourself. And if we can't trust ourself, like even just the little things, like not being able to trust yourself that you're going to go out and only have two drinks. So you can wake up and feel great for your day the next day. And then, Oh wait, well, I had four and now I have a headache and I didn't sleep well and I woke up at 2 a.m. with a pounding heart.

Like something as small as that to something like, well, I have these goals and how am I going to get to this? If it's like you've got this, you're carrying around this like weight that's making your goals so much harder to achieve. And when you release that, there's so much freedom and so much ease.

Allison (08:48.6)
Yeah, that's exactly the word I would choose, freedom. Like I just feel awakened and just that like giant, I was making my life so much harder, right? And now that I've been able to step back, I kind of had an untraditional sort of sobriety journey, although I do actually think it's more popular where I started with taking really big breaks, right? So...

Jane Ballard (09:14.341)
Yes.

Allison (09:15.052)
I wasn't even in necessarily like the one day at a time mindset. I couldn't get there. I was still it was too still too scary for me. So I would commit to you know intervals of time. So it started really little right. It was just like, okay, let's just go the week and then I did that and I again built that a little more trust. So I'm like, okay now I can go a month now. I can go six weeks and over the course of time, you know, I was just building numbers and now I.

Jane Ballard (09:21.506)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (09:39.758)
Right.

Allison (09:41.456)
have had enough time where I just can't see another way for my life. So on, what was it? I should have like know my own date, right? August 15th, I committed just like, this is it. My life is just better on this side. But yeah, you know, something that became aware to me now with all this time under my belt is not just the trust, but it's how many decisions in my life were

Jane Ballard (09:45.809)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (09:51.067)
I'm sorry.

Jane Ballard (09:56.508)
right.

Allison (10:10.16)
being poorly affected by alcohol and something that really came up for me is my relationships, right? So I lost some friends, which I think is, you know, a really hard truth of when you make really any big change in your life, but certainly one that is so social to begin with. And that was really heartbreaking for me. Now, so painful. And now I can look back and when I really assess the friendships that I lost, you know, I don't...

Jane Ballard (10:26.988)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (10:30.611)
It can be so painful.

Allison (10:40.196)
begrudge that part of my life or what I needed from those people and what they needed from me at that time. But they were really much more superficial friendships. They, you know, I mean, again, I bartended for 20 years, I own a bar. Let me tell you, at three o'clock in the morning, no one is having a deep conversation, right? People are repeating themselves, they're not listening, they're slurring, right? And now that I've been able to step back, I've had more time. So I really like nurture the friendships that I do have. And they're just deeper, more meaningful, more powerful.

Jane Ballard (10:55.772)
Thank you.

Amanda (10:57.794)
Hahaha

Allison (11:10.669)
Certainly the relationship with my husband has gotten exponentially better. We've been together for 12 years. We met over drinking. He owns the bar I used to work at. Right? Very scandalous. I was his employee. Here we are 12 years later.

Jane Ballard (11:24.668)
Who needs boundaries in a bar, you know? Yeah.

Allison (11:27.912)
There's no such thing. And so that was a big like metamorphosis for us of how to have an identity together that isn't so centered around staying up to four o'clock in the morning. Where are we going for a cocktail? Yeah. Seeped in alcohol culture.

Jane Ballard (11:32.884)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (11:39.512)
Yeah, like steeped in alcohol culture.

Yeah. So I want to circle back to something you said about the beginning of your journey, that it looked non-traditional, which is actually becoming more and more popular, which I love.

but you were having these periods of time where you would commit to certain chunks of sobriety. And it's almost like you were collecting data and you had these comparisons of like, this was my life. Alcohol-free for this month. And then here was my life, not alcohol-free and which one actually felt better because we have all these fears that if I give up alcohol, I won't be fun or I won't connect with anyone or my friends won't want to hang out with me or I'll be so bored.

Allison (12:23.108)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (12:27.03)
feeling of anxiety or stress or whatever it is. And it sounds like you almost had like this emotionally corrective experience of actually these breaks were not about deprivation.

Allison (12:43.676)
Absolutely. You know, the fear at the beginning of all the things, right, again, we use alcohol for pretty much all things, right, if we're mourning, we use it to help us get rid of those sad feelings, if we go through a breakup, right, we go out and that's our liberation, we're having cocktails, we cheers when we celebrate. So I had all these really marked patterns of just like what fun looks like, what social life looks like. And you know.

that I have to admit I was in a very deprivation mindset at the beginning, right? Like I'm missing out and you know my coach really tried to get me to reframe that. Like what are we gaining from this experience? And something that profoundly helped me, I made notes to myself. So I had like a running you know little note in my iPhone and I would write the day that I drank and how I felt. And what I was starting to realize is there was gifts at the... so like things like when I moved to New Jersey I got to drive home.

Jane Ballard (13:21.833)
Yes.

Allison (13:40.236)
I didn't have to take a $200 Uber. I could just get in my car and go. I was learning that, now it sounds obvious, but I didn't really realize this then. It's like, it's not the alcohol that's making the things fun. It's the thing I'm doing. A concert is just inherently fun. I'm seeing a band I enjoy. So over time, I did get that. I love how you said that, like that just like emotional information and I was getting better sleep.

Jane Ballard (13:43.628)
Ah.

Jane Ballard (13:57.72)
Yes.

Allison (14:07.268)
I was getting to go home, I was having better boundaries. Like I didn't have to stay at a bar until 6 a.m. I could leave at 11 if I wanted to and go home and wake up, have a good night's sleep. And so, you know, I was just starting to feel better, right? And, you know, I think there's so much messaging about just how good alcohol is, right? That...

Jane Ballard (14:14.981)
Yeah, and get a good night's sleep.

Jane Ballard (14:29.586)
It's everywhere.

Allison (14:30.132)
even though it was counterintuitive. I'm like, actually, it's not that good for me. I'm finding on the other side of the bottle, there's freedom, there is passion, there is self-trust, there's better relationships, there's better relationship with my husband. But I would still like the full commitment I needed. For me, I needed a bunch of different times to really like, just like nail it in.

Jane Ballard (14:42.044)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (14:49.372)
Commit to it. Yeah. And I think the idea of never doing something again feels very stifling and intimidating. If someone told me I could never eat chocolate again, that would feel very hard for me. I'd be thinking about chocolate all the time. And so I like the approach of just, I'm going to see what this is like and just treat it like an experiment and get curious and start collecting data and make some intentional choices around it.

Allison (15:18.82)
Yeah, I love it.

Jane Ballard (15:22.913)
So then you started talking about your husband and how y'all, he owned a bar and you were the bartender. And so y'all started dating and then you were together 12 years and now you're married and now you're alcohol-free. So what, like looking back on that timeline, what sticks out for you in terms of just intimacy and connecting with him and...

the role of alcohol in that journey.

Allison (15:53.644)
Yeah, you know, the day that sticks out to me the most, and you know, he hates it when I use this as an example, but it's mine and I still stand by it, was our wedding. And you know, we had really committed to like absolutely no drinking. And, spoiler alert, did not succeed. And you know, I was with, our wedding was over the course of several days. We were a COVID wedding, our wedding got canceled, we rebooted it a year later.

about only, you know, we were supposed to have 200 people, only about 70 were able to come, which was still pretty amazing the year later. So we spread it over the course of a few days. And I remember the first day, like only having two glasses of wine and being like, yes, I did this. And then the second day we had a big, you know, we were outside, you know, still kind of recovering from COVID, even though it was a year later, so it was outside, we're at this big beer garden.

Jane Ballard (16:21.978)
Wow.

Jane Ballard (16:27.181)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (16:43.907)
Yeah.

Allison (16:46.676)
And I remember again, committing to the two drinks and I had my goddaughter, I had no bridesmaids because I was in my 40s and I just didn't wanna do it. But my goddaughter who was 13 was my quote unquote bridesmaid and she actually came up to me at the beer garden and was like, Auntie Ali, you said you would only have two drinks and I've counted three. I was like, wow, like someone else is noticing that my behavior changes, you know? And the next day for our actual wedding, I was like, well, I've got this, right? Like, here we go, I only have two and then I have three.

Jane Ballard (16:53.291)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (17:07.288)
He's watching.

Allison (17:16.228)
golden. And I was really stressed out. There was a lot of things that were happening as per normal weddings, right. And my wedding planner actually jokingly, but in hindsight, I'm like, wow, that was a powerful moment. She brought me a bottle of wine with a straw, right. And she was like, just take a big swig, like swig as much as you can. And this is like minutes before I'm getting walking down the aisle, right. And again, it was a powerful experience of like the woman that I've hired to help me navigate all of the pressures, my family pressures.

Jane Ballard (17:21.592)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (17:37.793)
Yeah.

Allison (17:46.24)
idea of just getting married. I don't like attention so just I was getting really nervous. It was like yeah the coping skill is get drunk right like that's what we do.

Jane Ballard (17:53.616)
get like ingest the central nervous system depressants. So you'll numb yourself to all the things you're feeling that are totally appropriate to feel on your wedding day.

Allison (17:59.143)
Ha!

Allison (18:02.436)
And like how sad, it's my wedding day. I should have been like mindful, right? And the end of that story, both my husband and I kind of got through the wedding fine. We did the typical Jersey thing. We went after hours. And the last memory of the night is like him and I screaming at each other at a pizza place because we're like drunkenly eating pizza. I'm in my wedding dress, right? Like God bless what the people at the pizza parlor were thinking at 5 a.m. Like here's this ride clearly wasted.

Jane Ballard (18:22.857)
Oh my gosh.

Jane Ballard (18:27.476)
I mean, this could be a movie.

Allison (18:31.76)
And I remember that being, you know, we woke up the next day, most of the 90% of the wedding was fantastic. But I'm like, the last like there was still an ugly memory and this day that was supposed to be really special and really beautiful. And that was like, okay, we have to do this differently, you know, like this can't be the way. And just like intermittent reinforcement, I would joke with my husband, we most of the time wouldn't fight when we're driving.

Jane Ballard (18:43.932)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (18:50.317)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (18:53.712)
Yes.

Allison (18:59.64)
Right? Most of the time. So maybe three months, but it's like still four times a year. We're getting into this like epic fight, which is just drunken. Right? It's like, we're talking about nonsense. None of us are listening to each other. And you know, at a certain point I was like, let's just play that tape forward. Right? One of those sentences that I love when we talk about alcohol, it's like, do you see us staying married in five years? If we continue to have four epic.

Jane Ballard (19:01.115)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (19:05.744)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (19:21.88)
Yes.

Allison (19:29.072)
fights that we have to really spend some time recovering from, I don't see it happening. You know, I think at some point, not today, but some point, we're gonna have to break up. And what a tragedy will that be? Like for what? You know, so that we can have a beverage, right?

Jane Ballard (19:32.036)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (19:46.496)
Yes, a beverage that gives you 30 minutes of a little bit of euphoria. Yeah.

Allison (19:51.748)
Yeah, exactly that, right? Yeah, it's this side of it, and I'm very proud of my husband. It took him a longer sell. He watched me, you know, kind of learn, like become a better person, a better wife. You know, he has children, a better stepmom, and you know, he's been inspired to try himself. So he's committed to a year, right? I think I haven't totally sold him to the whole like forever deal yet, but he committed to a year. Yeah, yeah. And just the other day, he was like,

Jane Ballard (20:14.044)
Okay.

Jane Ballard (20:17.393)
Yeah, but that's okay.

Allison (20:21.936)
we are doing so much. Like this is, we're, we feel, we both feel safe now, right? Like alcohol breeds chaos. It breeds instability. And you know.

Jane Ballard (20:26.044)
tests.

Jane Ballard (20:30.348)
Yes, unpredictability, emotional inconsistency, and yeah.

Amanda (20:36.394)
Yeah, and the intimacy is not truly authentic if we're intoxicated. So to get that really true, un-lubricated intimacy, we have to be sober-minded.

Allison (20:49.84)
Yes, we workated in a different way.

Jane Ballard (20:49.928)
lubricated in a different way, let me just say. Ha ha ha.

Amanda (20:53.47)
Oh yeah, definitely.

Jane Ballard (20:57.456)
But yes, you're right, like to actually feel the emotions that come up for you, if your central nervous system isn't functioning fully, you're not gonna fully be there.

Allison (21:09.376)
No, and you know, so a lot of the work I do with my clients, right, so, you know, a huge part of my practice is that sex therapy, we talk about embodiment, right? How to connect to your senses, how to really get, intimacy really is about vulnerability, right? Like, I mean, think about it the most literal sense, we're stripping down naked, we're like pretty raw. So, you know, how to show up so authentically to that space.

Jane Ballard (21:30.171)
test.

Allison (21:36.66)
is really being your most vulnerable and mindful self. And for me, mindfulness always just sort of means focusing on what's happening around us without judgment, really connecting in. And most people don't have a lot of those skills, right? Like no one really teaches us, as much as we go to like, maybe you've had sex ed, maybe. Like they're teaching you like menstruation, right? They're not teaching you like how to have an orgasm. They're not teaching you what it's like to, you know.

Jane Ballard (21:55.213)
Maybe.

Jane Ballard (22:02.172)
Oh my gosh, no way. You're on your own on that one.

Allison (22:07.352)
So, you know, most of us are gonna start our sex life kind of going in blinds and it's scary, right? And like what have we all learned? When we're scared it's easier to numb out, right? I'm so much more scared. Absolutely, right? You know, oh I don't know how to go on a date without alcohol. I'm not funny. I'm not interesting. I'm not sexy. Oh I'm so insecure, right? And so we build a pattern.

Jane Ballard (22:12.09)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (22:19.256)
Get your straw and your wine bottle and numb out.

Allison (22:33.344)
of getting drunk before sex and you know, all right, maybe you've had sober sex, maybe all of your sex hasn't been drunk, but for most people, at least some of it has, right? And just connecting to that whole mind body connection with whoever it is that you're sleeping with and you're having this experience with is just really intimidating for most people. So, you know, a lot of the work I do is.

Jane Ballard (22:44.183)
Nah.

Allison (22:58.46)
getting someone more comfortable, like really looking at like, why are we so scared? How can we build confidence? How can we build security? What kind of boundaries might you need around it so this feels really safe for you, rather than just going in, numbing it out, and then seeing what happens.

Jane Ballard (23:08.46)
Yeah. Right.

Jane Ballard (23:14.208)
Right. I think that a lot of people, the concept of having boundaries in a long-term relationship or in a marriage sometimes hasn't even occurred to them. That you can actually set boundaries with your spouse or your significant other. Yeah.

Amanda (23:28.795)
Thank you.

Allison (23:29.316)
Yeah, absolutely, of course.

Jane Ballard (23:33.036)
So how do you see shame playing into this? You know, I grew up in the eighties and nineties in Texas and you know, steeped in purity culture and sex was a taboo topic, especially sex outside of marriage was considered to be extremely shameful. What are your thoughts about that and how does alcohol play into it in your mind?

Allison (23:58.892)
Yeah, you know, shame, I think is, I'm gonna say a bold statement, but I almost think is one of the most, if not the most common feelings when it comes to sex. And because shame, like by nature, is really secretive, we don't talk about it, right? So we have all these big feelings. And it can be shame on anything, certainly from purity culture, right? Like I'm dirty.

I'm slutty, I'm a bad person, right? All of those things. I'm a slut.

Jane Ballard (24:29.04)
Yes. Well, like just the metaphors that were given, like a piece of gum that had been chewed up and can't be un-chewed, and these horrible, horrible things for a little girl to be thinking about herself. And then let's say she does have sex outside of marriage, and then that's her idea of who she is, this like damaged thing that can't be undamaged.

Amanda (24:34.558)
Thank you.

Allison (24:44.357)
Yes.

Allison (24:51.184)
Mm-hmm.

Allison (24:55.72)
Yeah, yeah, the one I actually believe it or not, I've not heard the gum one. Right. When I also grew up in the eighties and nineties, ours was, you know, the one with the cow, it's like, who wants to buy the cow and you give the milk for free. So it's all of this like already shameful stuff. And then when we're talking about maybe other things that are coming up in within our sexual life, right. Our sexuality, right. Maybe someone's wanting to experiment with a girl, but doesn't want to be claimed that they're a lesbian, right. Like.

Jane Ballard (25:05.973)
Get the milk for free, yeah.

Jane Ballard (25:11.48)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (25:18.341)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (25:23.608)
Yeah, they don't want to label.

Allison (25:25.788)
totally normal inside of sex. There's body shame, right? I don't know how to show up and be seen. No one's ever taught me that, right? I'm just cowering at the idea of someone seeing me in all of my glory, right? And, you know, particularly, of course men have it as well, but women particularly struggle with a lot of body image. Right? Certainly things like back to the purity culture, masturbation, right? A girl might not want to experiment, figure out what she likes herself.

Jane Ballard (25:39.692)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (25:46.584)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (25:51.593)
Oh yeah.

Allison (25:55.332)
Watch your products.

Jane Ballard (25:55.628)
or even consider that that's an option to figure out how to have an orgasm.

Allison (26:00.1)
Yeah, right? So it's like, if we think about all this stuff, right? We might be insecure about our body. We might be insecure about what we want. We might be insecure of religious guilt telling us we're naughty, right? Doesn't it kind of make sense that when it's like, oh, I can just numb some of these feelings, right? And then the voice gets quieted, right? That's an alluring option, right? Now I know, you know, right?

Jane Ballard (26:11.694)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (26:16.856)
Here's this magical potion. Yay.

Jane Ballard (26:26.32)
Absolutely.

Allison (26:28.44)
in the therapy world, like there's ways to heal these messages, quiet these messages without turning to a substance, but that is also not something that's like very readily talked about.

Jane Ballard (26:35.193)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (26:39.276)
Absolutely. And it takes more time and it can be extremely difficult. It takes a lot of courage to do that work.

Allison (26:47.96)
It does, absolutely. I joke that I have a decent social media presence and I can even write the word sex. They make you like exit out or the thing gets flagged. Exactly, you have to put like the money sign, like I'm Kesha. So, but I think that speaks volumes to that, we can't.

Jane Ballard (26:58.588)
Yes, you have to like put an asterisk where the E is or something.

Jane Ballard (27:05.904)
Ha ha!

Allison (27:11.348)
even speak about this stuff, right? Like, how are we having conversations if we can't, if the word sex is something that can get you taken down on social media, we're not having good conversations around there, right? Like that is subconsciously telling you this is something that's taboo, right? Don't talk about the naughty thing. This is a bad word, right? It needs to be censored.

Jane Ballard (27:21.077)
meaningful discussions. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (27:29.224)
Mm-hmm. Right. Amanda, what were you going to say?

Amanda (27:32.382)
I remember, so I've been married for 13 years. And when I was dating my husband, I remember this one evening, he like got fully undressed in the room with me. And I was just like, oh my gosh, like I just wasn't prepared and I was just so uncomfortable. And so as a man, he's very comfortable being naked. All like, he just, he has no issue with it whatsoever. And my boys are like that too. And then my husband said this to me and it,

I couldn't believe it when he said it, but when I thought back on it, I know that it's true. It was like, so after we've been married for 13 years, it was like seven years into our marriage before I ever was comfortable, like being seen by him like naked, which is so crazy to me. I'm like seven years of like, yes, so crazy.

Jane Ballard (28:18.637)
just.

Allison (28:20.378)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (28:22.416)
seven years into marriage. Yeah. And I think that is probably a product of our culture and the norms and the taboo nature of talking and being seen and taking up space as a female.

Amanda (28:41.258)
Yeah, and then we have these, we're given these pictures of what our bodies are supposed to look like. And they're not realistic ever at all, because they're filtered, but it seems like that's what we need to look like. And so it just feels like we might never add up. So therefore it's like really hard to be seen.

Jane Ballard (28:51.516)
Mm-mm. No.

Jane Ballard (29:05.024)
Absolutely, the vulnerability. Yes, and I think to your point, women who have been married for years, the idea of starting to have sober sex with their spouse, even who they've had sex with for years, can be really scary and feel really vulnerable to people.

Amanda (29:05.502)
and to feel attractive. Yeah.

Amanda (29:30.602)
Yeah. Yeah, we, my husband and I had sober sex for years, but I was still in this point of being not fully confident. And then I went through my drinking phase, which I personally feel like drunk sex is very sloppy. And it just like looking back, I'm like, oh, like that doesn't, I don't ever want to do that again.

Jane Ballard (29:32.013)
Yeah.

Allison (29:47.629)
Mm.

Jane Ballard (29:48.56)
for sure.

Jane Ballard (29:55.064)
You don't want to go back to that.

Amanda (29:56.774)
Yeah, and then having sober sex is like just so intimate and special. And it's heartfelt and it's just different than anything I've ever experienced because prior to drunk sex, I was just, you know, young and insecure.

Jane Ballard (30:17.002)
Yeah.

Allison (30:17.488)
Yeah, you know, alcohol, now that I know a little more about it, it shuts off parts of our brains, right? So it's like the emotional regulation part of our brain goes offline, right? Our memory goes offline or short term memory and our motor skills, right? So it's like, here in this like, it's, you know, watching anybody just like walk in high heels when they're drunk, it's like, they're not swab, right? They're not swab, they're not sassy and moving in this like gazelle type formation.

Jane Ballard (30:33.956)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (30:46.264)
No, but they may think they are.

Amanda (30:48.181)
No.

Allison (30:49.933)
For me. Right. So, you know, we're showing up in the bedroom the same way. It's really hard to, not only just, you know, as we were talking about, be present, but just, you know, even the movements get, you know, get sloppy. I mean, I don't know another way to say it. They're just sloppy. Yeah, you know, and I don't know about your guys' experience, but for me, you know, now that I'm sober, when I watch drunk people, it's such...

Jane Ballard (31:02.064)
sloppy. They're uncoordinated, they're not beautiful.

Allison (31:16.068)
a powerful reminder of like, no one is their best self when they're drunk, right? They're just not. So if you can't have, if you can't drive a car, if you can't have a good conversation, the idea that we're going to have like epic mind blowing sex when we're drunk is really just, you know, a tall tale. Like it doesn't really make sense at all.

Jane Ballard (31:20.975)
Mm-mm.

They're just not.

Jane Ballard (31:36.768)
Yeah. What are your thoughts about how to help women who are in that space where they've given up alcohol, maybe their spouse still drinks, sober sex feels new and a little bit nerve wracking. Anything that could be helpful for them?

Allison (31:56.004)
You know, I listened to a podcast, in the beginning of my sober journey, I listened quite often to a podcast called Salsa Squad. And one of the hosts had said something that really stuck with me. And she said at the top of her sober journey when her husband was still drinking, she put a boundary that she wouldn't have sex with him if he was drinking. And I actually held that boundary too. And I think it did help me because I think already just the idea of sober sex is such an overwhelming, intimidating experience.

to not have someone be meeting you there, right? Gets even scarier, right? So for me, that was like a boundary that I always have clients just consider, right? They should pick their own boundaries. If that doesn't feel right for them, that's fine. But, you know, and then, and knowing it's gonna be awkward, right? I often talk about like distress tolerance, right? It's like sometimes we can't go from never having sober sex to it just suddenly being comfortable.

Jane Ballard (32:29.148)
Yes. Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do this.

Jane Ballard (32:38.446)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (32:55.114)
Mm-hmm.

Allison (32:55.12)
Right. So really embracing the idea that this is going to be a learning curve packet full of self compassion. Right? Like this is new for me. I don't know how to do this. Nobody's taught me this. It's scary. It's vulnerable. I'm allowed to move slow. Right? Maybe, you know, actual sex penetration, all the like, wild stuff that happens later is just too much of a stretch right now. Okay, can we make out? Right? Can we sit on the couch and just like

Jane Ballard (33:01.634)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (33:09.496)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (33:19.344)
Yeah.

Allison (33:21.684)
go back to like, remember when you were in high school, like before sex was actually on the table, right? How fun was it when like, someone got to second base, right? Like, holy, so it's like, you can kind of go back to the basics and relearn how to do this. And that's, that's okay. You know, I don't even care if you've been married for 20 years, it's okay to have to just reboot a bit. Yeah, and then you're building confidence, right? So just like any skill. So that's usually where I say like, where's your comfort level is, how do you feel if

Jane Ballard (33:29.077)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (33:41.596)
to go back there.

Allison (33:50.82)
getting completely naked and having, you know, penetrative sex just feels too much. What doesn't feel too much, right? Like you just said, right? Seeing my husband naked was actually uncomfortable for me. Okay, well, maybe we start there then, right? Maybe you just get naked. Oh, you know, yeah, take a shower together. Exactly, get in a hot tub, right? Make out in a pool. There's plenty of ways, you know, before we're just like thinking about the traditional route to sex. That's gonna be what you wanna do.

Jane Ballard (33:57.028)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (34:05.236)
Yes, take a shower together and see how that goes.

Jane Ballard (34:16.964)
Yeah, and I think just like any kind of anxiety trigger, it's going to be uncomfortable, but the more you expose yourself to that thing, the more you will develop a tolerance for it and it will become less uncomfortable with time.

Amanda (34:17.259)
Yeah.

Allison (34:34.044)
exactly that. I also encourage people to get familiar with themselves. So we have to figure out what we like and we don't like. So take that from any extreme that feels right for you. Maybe it just means standing in front of the mirror without clothes on and saying nice things to yourself. Sounds cheesy, sounds cliche. I can't make it sound cool, but nonetheless it's really important and powerful healing.

Jane Ballard (34:35.906)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (34:44.164)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (34:53.029)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (34:58.2)
But right, like getting to know what your body looks like, I think can be helpful. Yes, I love that. I don't think it's cheesy. Yes, I can see how it sounds cheesy, but I think like in order to love ourselves, we need to know who we are and what we look like and what we like and what we dislike and own that and communicate it to our partners.

Amanda (35:01.515)
Yeah.

Allison (35:03.708)
mm-hmm yeah absolutely

Allison (35:23.404)
Yeah.

Amanda (35:24.786)
Yeah, I think that's so important. And like making out, my husband and I have made out so much over the past two years, more than we ever have in our marriage. And it is so intimate. And then like, we are very intentional about like, what I like and what he likes. And he knows like, you know, positions are important, you know, and...

Jane Ballard (35:50.712)
Like what feels safe? What doesn't? What feels good or what's, what could be uncomfortable or painful? And. Yeah.

Amanda (35:52.726)
Yeah.

Amanda (35:56.01)
Yeah, absolutely.

Allison (35:59.48)
Yeah, and I think, you know, the shame comes into this as well, meaning communication around sex is actually usually a poor, right? So I'll say to, you know, again, predominantly women I find have this, you know, showcase sort of this insecurity the most. Like, well, have you told your husband you don't like that? He's like, no, I don't want to hurt his feelings, right? And like the idea that...

sex is supposed to be about the other person, that you don't get to show up. No, sex gets to be pleasurable for you. Sometimes even it might be just pleasurable for you. We don't have to make this a mutually pleasurable experience. Sometimes it's his turn, sometimes it's her turn, sometimes it's multiple partners turns, whatever it is for you. Allowing, that is part of intimacy, is sharing your truth. I don't like that, is actually a really helpful sentence because your partner may not know, especially if you've been doing it.

Jane Ballard (36:32.848)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (36:50.325)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (36:54.288)
Yes.

Allison (36:56.528)
for a long time, right? To suddenly just be like, hey, can we try this? You know what, maybe I don't really like that. You can say it kindly, right? We don't have to be jerks, but that feedback is part of the intimacy. It is part of the communication. And there's a lot of shame around, maybe more guilt around hurting someone's feelings.

Jane Ballard (36:58.541)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (37:03.776)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (37:10.102)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (37:17.24)
Yeah. And, you know, to flip it, like if there was something I was doing that my husband didn't want to do, I would want him to tell me that I wouldn't want him just to do it because he didn't want to hurt my feelings, you know, like we fear that we're going to hurt our partner's feelings and maybe they will feel slightly hurt, but I think most of the time people really, they want to know what you're thinking and feeling and be able to meet your needs.

Allison (37:42.116)
Yeah, and trust, right? So even if I say to my husband, hey, I don't like that, I wanna try this instead, might he have a pang of rejection? Might he have a pang of insecurity? Yeah, sure, maybe he will. But testing the relationship that like we can move past that, right? This isn't some catastrophic event. We can disappoint each other, we can hurt each other, we can feel rejections by our partners and still have a loving, meaningful, happy, sexy relationship, right? So we can...

Jane Ballard (37:54.425)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (38:10.52)
Yes.

Allison (38:11.452)
shy away from those conversations just because they might be difficult.

Jane Ballard (38:14.968)
And your husband is strong enough to cope with like a little bit of rejection. He has, he, he has emotion regulation skills and he can, he can tolerate that and process it and move forward.

Allison (38:19.476)
Yeah.

Amanda (38:29.674)
Yeah, I think this also comes reminds me of the stories we tell ourselves, you know, that aren't necessarily true that sometimes we think that it's going to hurt our spouses feelings, but they may actually really appreciate the feedback instead. And I add that was my experience when I finally like felt confident enough to share with my husband that like, I wanted to do things a little bit different sexually. I think he was thrilled.

to have my feedback and he was like, oh, this is, you know, there was, he wasn't upset at all and he didn't feel rejected at all. He was just so happy that like I was finally able to have this conversation.

Allison (38:57.147)
Yeah.

Allison (39:03.13)
Mm-hmm.

Allison (39:10.82)
Yeah, yeah, you know, a lot of what I do in therapy is cognitive behavioral therapy, which is just, you know, our thoughts dictate our behaviors. So we just have to get really, you know, curious about what our thought is. If our thought is, I'm gonna hurt my feeling, my husband's feelings, my partner's feelings by sharing how I feel, we're probably not gonna do it, right? But if we flip it a little bit, and it's like actually telling, you know, him or her what I am feeling strengthens the relationship.

bigs for better sex, right? We're gonna be more likely to actually show them do that. So, you know, just really thinking about the stories you tell. I love the way that you put that.

Jane Ballard (39:41.788)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (39:47.032)
Yes. And noticing the thinking traps that you typically fall into. Like, you're kind of mind reading. Like, well, if I tell him this, this is what he's going to think and feel. And really, that's possible, but you don't know for sure. That's kind of the worst case scenario. Like, what's the best case scenario? And what's the most likely scenario? The most likely is usually closer to the best case than the worst case that we tell ourselves. Yeah.

Amanda (40:13.526)
Yeah, this negative self-talk that especially women have is so deeply rooted that I mean, it's sad and it takes so much work and it's not like something you get to and you've solved this problem and you're good to go for your life. It's like it's like a journey you have to stay on for the rest of your life. For sure.

Jane Ballard (40:34.392)
Absolutely, a lifelong process. Yeah. Well, tell us a little bit about kind of how people can get in touch with you. You know, what kind of clients you see and how they can reach you.

Allison (40:49.176)
Yeah, so I run a therapy practice in the state of New Jersey. Again, I specialize in anxiety, sex and intimacy and trauma. Um, I have a website that I have built and I'm very proud of because I did not know how to build a website four months ago, um, but it's a note from your therapist.com. So for New Jersey clients, um, I do have a therapy practice for people outside of New Jersey, I do also coaching. Um, that's more.

Jane Ballard (41:03.684)
That's awesome.

Allison (41:18.864)
less so from a therapeutic lens, more for a empowerment, building confidence, kind of meeting your best self lens. There, maybe kind of go backwards and look at our past where coaching I find is really just future oriented. But I do offer both. And I have I'm starting a podcast starting next week. So thank you guys for being my inspiration. I'm excited about it. I'm a little nervous. But you know, we can do hard things. And that's my

Jane Ballard (41:25.61)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (41:31.4)
Well.

Jane Ballard (41:36.824)
Yay! That is so exciting.

Amanda (41:37.034)
Yay!

Amanda (41:41.194)
Yeah, it is.

Jane Ballard (41:45.4)
We can do hard things, we can push through the nerves.

Allison (41:48.912)
So that's called Becoming Unstoppable and it launches on February 1st where you can find all your podcasts. And then, you know, I'm on the Instagram and I'm on the Facebook and all the social stuff. Am I a handle? Yeah. Yeah, so I'm mostly a note from your therapist. I think one or two places, they wouldn't allow that name. So I'm a note from therapy, but all the main ones I'm a note from your therapist.

Jane Ballard (41:54.188)
All right. Okay.

Jane Ballard (42:01.152)
All the social media stuff. I love your social media. Your Instagram page is, is really good.

Amanda (42:06.943)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (42:13.014)
Okay.

Jane Ballard (42:16.366)
Okay.

Amanda (42:16.559)
I love that, Allison. I'm so excited to listen to your podcast.

Allison (42:19.639)
Thank you.

Jane Ballard (42:20.888)
Yes. Well, before we sign off, any last tips or anything that you would share with women on this journey of kind of looking at alcohol? Maybe they're sober curious, or maybe they're trying dry January, or they're already sober.

Allison (42:36.988)
Yeah, you know, I think if I look back to like what would have helped me, just knowing that there's no one way to do this and there's no wrong or right way to do this. If you are looking at your life and questioning the relationship that you have with alcohol and wanting to change it, just keep following that lead, right? Find social support. You know, for me, social media was actually a very powerful tool. There is so many communities.

on Instagram that really have been helpful. There's quit lit. So just keep showing up, right? It's okay. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (43:09.804)
Yeah, fine. Yeah, just be consistent. If you fall off, begin again, just gather data. And you also mentioned one of the ways that you found community is that you went on a volley retreat early on.

Allison (43:17.467)
No shame.

Allison (43:24.092)
did. I did. So I was looking into going to Bali, because it's just been my dream. And I accidentally found someone who was only for sober women. And I at the time had been like a little dabbling with, you know, taking breaks. And so I went, she only required a few months. So I committed to a few months when I went to Bali. And so everyone there was alcohol free. They were all women. And it was life changing. I mean, it definitely

you know, motivated me to continue this journey. I learned a lot of skills. Also, if you haven't been to Bali, highly recommend. Beautiful place. You know, but that isn't, you know, once in a lifetime sort of event. There's plenty of retreats that are offered at varying different locations, varying different price points. So, you know, if someone is interested in just having sort of a really immersive experience where they can kind of.

Jane Ballard (43:57.34)
Oh my gosh, beautiful.

Allison (44:19.152)
quick fire, learn a bunch of skills, and build some quick support, retreats are a great way to go. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (44:24.484)
Absolutely. Yeah, we have a Bali retreat. Oh, go ahead. Sorry, Amanda.

Amanda (44:24.59)
Yeah. And we actually have a Bali retreat.

Allison (44:29.797)
He's dead.

Amanda (44:30.158)
You're good. That was like the exact same time. We have a Bali retreat coming up at the end of April. And it is for sober and sober curious women. And, you know, like Alison just said, this is the perfect opportunity for someone that truly is sober curious and wants to go spend a week with other women that are like-minded and see how much fun you can have alcohol-free.

Allison (44:34.844)
Hehehe

Jane Ballard (44:55.437)
Mm-hmm.

Allison (44:55.576)
Yeah, I went almost two years ago now and we still have a every woman that was in that group. We still have a running chat like they have become very major support system, not just on the alcohol free journey. But now we actually just, you know, share life events, right? And yeah, it really is. It is really a beautiful and unique experience. So if anybody's listening, I highly recommend joining their retreats.

Amanda (45:02.422)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (45:09.38)
Life.

Jane Ballard (45:14.052)
Yeah.

Amanda (45:17.879)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (45:17.9)
Yes, we're, we are super excited. I went on a retreat myself as a participant in April of last year. And same thing, we have our WhatsApp group and we still talk and support each other. And even on the retreat ourselves, like it wasn't alcohol focused. Yes, we did talk about our journeys as alcohol free women, but we were focused on all aspects of life and healing and just coming to accept who we are. And.

and befriend that person. And I think that is just such a life-changing thing to do, and it's a beautiful place to do it.

Allison (45:57.884)
Yeah, exactly. I, same experience. We did talk about alcohol, but that was not the primary focus. And what was birthed from that experience for me is I actually am writing a book because I went to Bali. So I found the inspiration, a lot of the workshops that we attended that really came to the forefront of my brain that I really needed to do this. And I don't know that I would have, I don't know that I would have done it if I hadn't had that experience in Bali. So, you know.

Jane Ballard (46:10.372)
Really?

Jane Ballard (46:24.112)
So Bali, that's kind of when those seeds were planted. Wow, that's awesome. All right, well, we have just loved visiting with you today. Thank you so, so much for being here.

Allison (46:27.084)
Yeah, absolutely it was.

Allison (46:32.019)
Yeah.

Allison (46:40.088)
much appreciate both of you.

Jane Ballard (46:41.944)
Yes. And I can't wait to hear your podcast February 1st.

Allison (46:46.112)
Thank you. Maybe we can do this in reverse. I'll be inviting you guys on.

Jane Ballard (46:49.987)
Yes, we would love to join you. All right. Okay.

Amanda (46:50.018)
You know that.