S1 E5 Alcohol and Marriage: What first led to connection ultimately led to disconnection (and how an alcohol free path brings hope, healing and authentic connection

Jane Ballard (00:01.732)
Hey Amanda, how's it going?

Amanda (00:03.594)
I'm good, how are you?

Jane Ballard (00:05.928)
I am doing great. So this is our third, fourth, fourth episode of Mindful Sobriety, the podcast. And we did a little poll on Instagram recently, and a lot of our followers wanted to hear about marriage and sobriety. It seemed to be like a very popular topic. I think 80% of the people voted for marriage over

tools and tips for navigating alcohol-free life, which is really interesting.

Amanda (00:40.042)
Yeah, I was surprised too. But at the same time, it's such a key part of this journey for sure.

Jane Ballard (00:47.044)
Yes, absolutely. And, you know, we all drink at times to help enhance connection with people. It gives us this illusion of connecting easily and quickly with others. And I think a lot of people probably met and dated their spouse or they are dating someone and alcohol is a big.

part of that. It's a big part of going out and having fun and dinners and parties and events. And so it naturally is a big thing to consider as someone is experimenting with living alcohol free, or if you're new in sobriety, or even if you're established in sobriety. My husband and I were actually talking this morning. I've been sober for a year and three, four months. And we were saying how I was kind of asking him...

how he felt about my sobriety and that sort of thing. And he drinks much less now. And he was like, you know, one thing I've noticed is that it's not as much fun to go to dinner anymore. Like, I just don't really wanna do that as much. And I started thinking, yeah, that's true. I was like, we need to figure out more activities we can do together that are fun and that help us feel connected that.

don't involve alcohol like maybe playing pickleball or something like that. Like even like this phase in my sobriety, I'm ready to start expanding in that way.

Amanda (02:08.158)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that makes total sense. Matt and I, it's interesting because you're married to someone for say 10 years and every single date you've ever been on, you have drinks. And then all of a sudden it's like, bam, there's no filter. And it is, it can, sometimes it's quiet.

And it's like, you know, this new way of being and then accepting like things are different now. And like you said, we have to find out what we actually enjoy doing because everything isn't going to be fun.

Jane Ballard (02:31.033)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (02:45.876)
Right. Alcohol has a way of making things that aren't that pleasant or that are just neutral, really fun and interesting sometimes for a little while until it gets cringy a little bit later in the night and you wake up and remember it the next day. But yeah, sometimes there's going to be some silences. Like becoming more comfortable with silence is a piece of it. And realizing you can still connect with someone when you're sitting in silence and just experiencing a pleasant moment together.

Amanda (03:14.666)
Yeah, I remember even like growing up hearing my dad say like, Amanda, it's not all life is not all about having fun. And I think really like, I think that I thought life, I needed to have fun all the time. And one thing I've learned is like, everything isn't supposed to be just a blast, you know, when you're when you're an adult, or even when you're a teenager, like, sometimes you just

Jane Ballard (03:38.436)
Yes.

Amanda (03:42.498)
go to dinner and have casual conversation. And then also there's so much power in finding out what you truly enjoy and having real fun as opposed to all those times when say my husband and I did drink together and had such a blast realizing that without the alcohol, we wouldn't have, it wouldn't have been that fun.

Jane Ballard (03:51.992)
Absolutely.

Jane Ballard (04:07.512)
Right. And sometimes you don't even remember all the moments of that time together. And so it's maybe you feel so connected in that moment when you're drinking with someone, but the next day, if you can't fully remember it, or you maybe said or did things you wouldn't have otherwise, that leads to feelings of like anxiety and discomfort and maybe some guilt and shame that then lead to disconnection.

That's really funny though about you having that memory with your dad of saying like life isn't all about fun because I remember a very similar conversation with my mom and it must be something about stages of development adolescence where like fun is like the ultimate goal to like have friends and to have fun with them. And I can remember feeling so puzzled like, well, then what else is there besides fun?

Amanda (04:42.53)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (05:04.084)
And there are other forms of satisfaction. You know, like just really getting to know someone and having a difficult but deep conversation is like really satisfying, but it's not necessarily fun.

Amanda (05:07.051)
Yeah, for sure.

Amanda (05:18.922)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And another factor is like, I think that whenever you get into a pattern of drinking regularly, like intimacy can also be really sloppy, as opposed to like going into intimacy, like very sober minded and with your heart open and without this mask of alcohol.

Jane Ballard (05:46.212)
That is an excellent point. And I think that is one that also people have a lot of angst about. If they typically drink with their spouse or they drink on date nights, then oftentimes when they are intimate, they're both, you know, they have alcohol in their system and so it can be kind of scary and intimidating for people to start.

having sex without alcohol in their system. That's a really, really good point. And one that probably feels taboo for people to talk about, it's not something you're gonna talk about over coffee with your friend, but it is an important topic to address.

Amanda (06:27.006)
Yeah, I think in the beginning of my marriage, like I just wasn't super comfortable with my body yet. And so the alcohol filter was definitely helpful at the time. But, you know, releasing the alcohol from our lives, you know, it helps you to become more comfortable with your body and then intimacy is really so much better than it ever has been before because...

Jane Ballard (06:33.957)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (06:56.798)
It's unfiltered and it's raw and it's really beautiful. Yeah.

Jane Ballard (06:58.512)
Right. You're actually experiencing the full range of emotional sensation and physical sensation for that matter.

Amanda (07:07.414)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, just a really beautiful connection.

Jane Ballard (07:12.004)
Yeah, I like that.

Amanda (07:13.822)
I think for my marriage, I for years and in my life probably, like I always was waiting for someone to fix me. Like this codependency was intense for sure. Because you know, as a teenager, my

grandma fixed all my problems. And then as an adult, I got married at 24 and Matt started to fix all my problems. And I thought, you know, this alcohol thing, somehow, some way, somebody was gonna figure out how to fix it, but it wasn't gonna be me. And, you know, there was...

Jane Ballard (07:33.994)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (07:47.981)
Yeah.

Amanda (07:53.422)
so much power and freedom that came with realizing that like nobody is coming to save me except for me.

Jane Ballard (08:00.704)
no one's coming to save you. And even if they tried, they couldn't. Like this is the kind of thing that only you have the power to make a change and to take that first step down on the path of healing.

Yeah, codependency is actually a really, I think a really big piece of it. And when someone in a relationship or both have been drinking, when someone takes alcohol off their side of the equation, it's kind of like these norms are all of a sudden off kilter and there's like a little bit of a storming phase that typically goes on in relationships.

Amanda (08:19.458)
Yeah.

Amanda (08:46.194)
Yeah. For when I first quit drinking, well actually so about a while before I quit drinking, my husband quit drinking, but not in the way that I quit drinking. He just...

was really into working out and he said that like his workouts weren't as good if he had drink over the weekend and he said that like his body was taking too long to recover basically like it wasn't just that he was hung over the next day it was like if he had drink on Saturday like the following Wednesday he was finally feeling totally better again and that's that is what this cycle is you know that our bodies just take so long to recover and so he had quit before I did.

Jane Ballard (09:23.096)
Yeah.

Amanda (09:33.554)
And so that was really helpful. But I do hear a lot of women have a lot of fear around, my husband drinks, I wanna quit drinking, but it's just such a strong part of our marriage. And what will that look like?

Jane Ballard (09:48.6)
Mm-hmm. Like it's almost hard to even picture or imagine what it would look like. Do you remember as a spouse of someone who decided to release alcohol, do you remember what your thoughts were and what emotions came up for you at that time?

Amanda (09:55.039)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amanda (10:10.862)
Yeah. I think there was probably a part of me that was annoyed with it because, you know, I misery loves company. And I'm not saying that I was miserable all the time by any means. I had a really great life with my family, but having someone that was drinking beside me helped me not to look at myself. And so

Jane Ballard (10:16.873)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (10:22.96)
Right.

Jane Ballard (10:35.807)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (10:39.622)
And I also always felt, and this was my own stinking thinking, that I always felt judged and like my husband was trying to control me, but he was really just trying to help me. And so I think him quitting like intensified those feelings that I already had. And then but you know, after a while, it also made me start to think like

Jane Ballard (10:45.089)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (10:52.577)
Yeah.

Amanda (11:06.998)
What would our life look like if we both quit drinking? Maybe this is possible for us.

Jane Ballard (11:10.564)
Yeah.

Yeah, seeing him do it and see that he is thriving and he's not living a life of boredom and deprivation. Like sometimes we imagine it'll be like.

Amanda (11:24.586)
Yeah, he was thriving. And so I think that happens a lot with people. That's what I see is like, one of say the husband quits and then the wife sees like how beneficial this is to his parenting skills and to his husband skills and to his career and his body image and all the things. And then it's like, oh.

I want to be like that or I want to see what that's like, you know? And so sometimes we go into things thinking that they're going to look a totally different way. And then it turns out so much better.

Jane Ballard (11:53.178)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (12:00.235)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (12:04.112)
That's a really good point. We have these worst case scenarios built up in our minds of what life would be like. And usually it is so much better. I think it's really important, if you're gonna have worst case scenario thinking, great, let's imagine the worst case scenario, but then think through, okay, if the worst case scenario does happen, how will I cope with that? What will I do?

And then what's the best case scenario? What's the best thing that could happen if we both quit drinking? What could life look like? And then number three, what's most likely to happen? What's the most likely scenario? And usually the most likely scenario is much closer to the best case scenario than the worst case scenario. But usually we never stop to consider those other two questions and we're just attached to this vision of the worst case scenario.

And it's so distressing that we immediately disqualify that option and keep going on with our lives without considering it any further.

Amanda (13:10.466)
Yeah, when it comes to worst case scenarios, whenever I play that tape in my mind, what I have done over the past couple of years is ask myself, is that worst case scenario really that bad? Like, would it destroy everything? And most of the time, even my worst case scenario isn't like horrible. I mean, it's bad, but life would go on.

Jane Ballard (13:34.478)
Yeah.

but it's something you could figure out how to cope with. Like your life wouldn't be over, it wouldn't be ruined. The things that you hold most dear would still be intact oftentimes.

Amanda (13:48.346)
Yes, and this is all part of the emotion regulation that comes with not drinking ever because whenever we do drink, I think you said this on one of the episodes, like our emotions are just so

Jane Ballard (13:57.015)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (14:07.882)
you know, not what, what am I trying to say?

Jane Ballard (14:13.864)
They are not unending. They're finite. They pass. Every emotion has a beginning, a middle, and an end. And when we're at the peak of it, in the middle of it, it feels like we're going to feel that way forever. But in reality, if we can just ride it out and tolerate the distress, it's going to pass. And we're going to come out the other end. And sure, that emotion may pop back up a few hours later, but you just ride it out again.

Amanda (14:16.878)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amanda (14:42.209)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (14:42.496)
You know, it's kind of like if you're a woman who's given birth to a baby, it's kind of like that. You just ride out that contraction. It feels horrific, but then it ends and then you just chill. And it may come back, but you know, you can do it. You know, you can get through it.

Amanda (14:56.83)
Yeah, and like the day after drinking or I would say even in the first couple weeks after not drinking that Realization hasn't come yet like things still We haven't got to the point where we realize that this is temporary or it may not actually be as bad as we're visualizing it to be

Jane Ballard (15:17.452)
Right, right. The day after drinking in a state of anxiety, one of my favorite terms, you know, even if you've had, let's say you've had two drinks, you're not going to feel like yourself. You're not going to be at your optimal level of emotional wellbeing the next day. And so when you do experience distressing thoughts, they're going to stick. Your mind is going to be a lot stickier and it's going to be a lot harder to think rationally and logically.

about those thoughts that are stuck in your mind. And so things feel much dire than they actually are. And then you give it a few more days and you think about that exact same situation and you're like, oh, yeah, no big deal. Why was I so upset the other day? And it's because being in a state of hangover or actually what it is really is withdrawal makes it really difficult to think clearly and rationally and to regulate emotions, like you said.

Amanda (16:11.202)
Yeah. Removing alcohol from our lives or from my life has been so good for our marriage, but it really has changed everything in the sense that we don't, especially for a while, we didn't go to a lot of parties that we would normally go to.

Jane Ballard (16:16.165)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (16:33.496)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (16:34.126)
And just we didn't hang out with the same people anymore. And then also going on dates, it was totally different. But it was different and maybe in the beginning, it wasn't super comfortable, but after a good amount of time, I would say like the conversations are so much more deep and authentic and you know.

needed, you know.

Jane Ballard (17:04.356)
Yeah, like productive conversations that need to happen. Yeah. I think that at first there will be a learning curve when you're kind of relearning how to relate to somebody in a new way. And there'll be challenges, and it'll feel like a loss. But ultimately, if you can stick it out, like you said, it feels so much better and so much healthier. And just like,

there's something to be said for stability and consistency and calm and peace. Maybe there's not the thrill and excitement, but that peace, like nothing beats that.

Amanda (17:48.062)
Yeah. Where would you say like boundaries came into play for you and your marriage and your alcohol free journey? Like how would all of those come together for you?

Jane Ballard (17:59.664)
That's a great question. So in my own personal journey, before I started drinking, I used to say that my husband was a really good influence on me because he doesn't do things to the extreme. He is so, I want to say disciplined, but I don't even think that's the right word because it doesn't require that much discipline for him. He's just a very moderate person. He'll take a few bites of a dessert

Amanda (18:10.09)
I would say.

Jane Ballard (18:29.424)
That was so good and he'll be done. And I'm like, what do you mean it was so good? I want seconds. It was so good that I can't stop. And he just doesn't have that, um, that type of temperament or trait. And so he was a very stabilizing force for me in the years before I quit drinking. And then when I did decide to quit drinking,

trying to think how boundaries would have come in. And I think they almost come in a very subtle way where maybe I imposed this idea on myself that I needed to be fun or lighthearted or playful. I tend to be kind of a serious person. I live a lot, I think a lot in my head. And so alcohol helped me kind of loosen up and.

quit taking things so seriously. And so I think I took it upon myself to be like, I need to do this so he'll enjoy being with me. And so part of the boundary was just me realizing like it's not my responsibility to be a certain way for him or to like to be entertaining or to be fun. And I'm probably, you know, underestimating my natural level of funness anyway. Like I can see that now that I can still be fun and I can still loosen up and

You know, tell jokes and be irreverent and lighthearted. It just takes a little bit longer to switch gears from like work responsibility mode to leisure time mode. So part of setting boundaries is just really getting clear on what, what is my responsibility to my husband? You know, I'm not responsible for, you know, fixing his boredom or, you know, controlling whether or not he has a good time, you know, it's just.

You know, my responsibility is to be my authentic self and to, to communicate directly and kindly and respectfully and, um, to share who I really am. And maybe I am boring. I don't know. I I'm willing to consider that possibility. Well, thank you. Thank you. Good.

Amanda (20:36.834)
You're definitely not boring. No, definitely not. I would not say that you're boring at all. But I think our ideas of fun just change, you know?

Jane Ballard (20:47.532)
Yes, from when Kyle and I first started dating and we were two single people with no children to now, you know, the parents of three school-aged kids, life is super intense. Like our idea of fun is way different, you know, like a relaxing dinner and movie without being interrupted or asked to do something for someone sounds like amazing fun.

Amanda (21:11.166)
Absolutely, I totally agree. And I think those things have always been fun, but I had this idea in my head that maybe FOMO or like fear that everybody else was doing something more fun. I'm not really sure why I felt that way, but I always remember feeling FOMO even as a teenager. And...

Jane Ballard (21:12.601)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (21:27.672)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (21:32.916)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (21:37.634)
for me boundaries look a lot like what you just said. I needed to realize that I was enough exactly how I was without anything extra. Even if I was at my worst, I was still enough. And I didn't need to pour any wine down my throat to be this different, more fun version of myself.

Jane Ballard (21:54.916)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (22:02.089)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (22:03.058)
And I think it all goes back to the stories we tell ourselves. You know, like I had this story in my head that I couldn't have fun without wine. And I couldn't relax without wine and everybody's doing it. And none of those things were true. And my family loves, likes me a lot better without it. Like what I thought they wanted in me was just a story that I was telling myself.

Jane Ballard (22:19.804)
Right.

Jane Ballard (22:29.668)
Absolutely. It was a thought. It was not a fact.

Yeah, I love that. It's like this narrative that you've created, but you realize, oh, this felt like actual, this is just reality, it's just the way things are. But then you take a step back and you look at it and you're like, oh, this was just a story. And I've tested out the story and learned that it's actually not true. They actually really like me without any line in my system. That's awesome.

Amanda (22:36.747)
Yeah, that's.

Amanda (22:52.982)
Yeah.

Amanda (23:01.194)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, just good old plain Jane. Exactly how she is. Yeah, exactly how she is without anything extra. She doesn't have to, you know, whatever mood she's in, she can be exactly how she is. And that's exactly how they want her. Because people that love us want that.

Jane Ballard (23:06.672)
Plain Jane, Plain Jane Amanda.

Jane Ballard (23:22.2)
Right.

Jane Ballard (23:25.668)
Yes, they don't love us for the intoxicated or the buzzed version of ourselves. They love us.

The other thing that comes up for me when I think about boundaries, and I think this has to do with being a spouse and a parent, kind of just family life, is...

During the day, in the course of the evening, if I would drink at home, it was almost like that was, I was doing that because I wasn't setting boundaries in other ways. You know, it's easy to pour a glass of wine while I'm cooking dinner and kind of monitoring homework or, you know, taking care of the kids in the background. I don't have to like actually go take time for myself where if I had been like, you know what, every day when I get home, I'm gonna take

10 minutes to breathe and have a moment to myself, or on these days, I'm gonna go work out after work and then come home and have a moment. Alcohol is kind of like this way we can multitask, self-care, it feels like self-care. But really, if we can just advocate for ourself and kind of build in these self-care, like mini micro self-care activities throughout our day, we're not gonna feel like we need that wine to.

to de-stress quite as much. And so I think that's another way just to set boundaries by advocating for your needs. And usually people want to know what your needs are. They don't wanna have to guess and offer to meet them. They really want you to let them know. And usually they would like to accommodate them.

Amanda (25:05.712)
Yeah, for sure. And you know, looking at wine as self-care is kind of, you know, I did the same thing. It's like this is how I'm going to treat myself. And you know, I would either drink a

Jane Ballard (25:07.365)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (25:14.96)
Yeah. Yes.

Amanda (25:21.186)
glass of wine or go get a massage. You know, it's like these ideas I had of self care. Yeah. And, you know, for another way that boundaries came into place for me was that I couldn't be present all the time at all the things for my kids. And that was...

Jane Ballard (25:23.636)
Yeah, or both at the same, you know? Yeah.

Jane Ballard (25:41.885)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (25:43.798)
there was some serious shame and guilt that came along with that because I, having an older son and then a son that's five years younger than, like they're five years apart, they both had different stuff going on. And so for so many years I was at, I made sure to be at all the things. And then when I did remove alcohol from my life, I realized like I can't, sometimes I can't do either. Like I need, if I need to stay home and,

Jane Ballard (25:52.587)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (26:09.017)
Yeah.

Amanda (26:12.118)
whatever I felt like I needed to do, like I just had to start giving myself permission to do that. And then also, like you said, if there was something that I needed help with, whether it was cooking dinner or washing dishes or doing laundry, whatever the thing was, giving myself permission to ask for help for my husband. And yeah, and like you said, they're usually more than happy to help.

Jane Ballard (26:17.154)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (26:34.644)
Absolutely.

Jane Ballard (26:41.021)
Yes.

Amanda (26:41.142)
But we have this story in our head that as a wife, we're supposed to do all the things. And it's exhausting.

Jane Ballard (26:47.648)
Right. It's exhausting. And really, it's impossible for one person to do all of that and to do it well and to feel good about it and still have time to attend to their own needs as a human.

Amanda (27:01.29)
Yeah, I think in the times that we live in, it's probably fairly common for the chores in a home to be split between the husband and wife, because as a wife, we also work full time as well.

Jane Ballard (27:02.512)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (27:16.728)
Yes, I think there's been a lot of progress in that there's probably still work to be done in some ways, but yes, I think that more and more men are, they're not our helpers. They're our co-parents and our co-home managers and they're pitching in and, you know, there's a division of labor, which is amazing.

So we were talking earlier about how both of our situations with our husbands and their drinking are pretty unique. Your husband quit drinking before you quit drinking. And when I quit drinking, my husband drastically reduced the amount of alcohol he was drinking. And he told me in the beginning, it was to be supportive of me. And then he realized that he didn't really miss it and it was a health benefit. And so he has, you know, he'll drink maybe.

once a month and literally one or two drinks. So he rarely drinks now. But I think in general, most women and men who choose to go alcohol free, their spouse isn't on board with that for themselves. Sometimes they're supportive of the spouse doing it, but they don't necessarily wanna join in. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts about that? When you're talking to other women, do you hear that a lot? Just concern about...

how that will be a barrier for them.

Amanda (28:42.826)
Yeah, I do hear that a lot all the time actually on meetings and stuff. And my situation is a little bit different, but I think it all comes down to just...

Jane Ballard (28:49.844)
Yeah. Yes.

Amanda (29:02.23)
of drawing a hula hoop around yourself and deciding that you're you can only focus and change yourself and it may be that your spouse comes along and joins you some at some point but it may not be that maybe that never happens and that's okay too and trying to change someone else never works so yeah and then also just

Jane Ballard (29:04.792)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (29:15.448)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (29:23.113)
It never works. It's impossible.

Amanda (29:28.714)
Like if I were talking to someone right now that was asking me this question, the first thing I would say is like, most importantly, you should know like there's nothing wrong with you. And just because you're having, having the shame and guilt around drinking, doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you. It just, for whatever reason you have, you have shame and guilt. Maybe your husband or wife has shame and guilt as well. They're just not, you know, saying anything about it.

Jane Ballard (29:39.769)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (29:58.492)
Absolutely. And I think reiterating, like, there is nothing wrong with you is so key. Like, we hear all the time, like, they must have a problem with alcohol. And the truth is that people are not the problem. The substance is the problem. Alcohol is a problematic substance, and it's an addictive substance that, you know, science will tell us.

causes tolerance and withdrawal and craving, those three phenomenon. And you put it in any person, I say this all the time, you put it in any person with enough frequency, enough duration and enough amount. And the same thing will happen. And so in a culture that idolizes socializing with alcohol and alcohol being a part of daily life, that's just, that is bound to happen to many, many of us that we are going to have negative experiences and that we are going to be

impacted in a negative way by consuming alcohol and participating in that culture. And so I think taking a step to either eliminate that or look at your relationship and consider making some changes is so brave. It takes so much courage. And sometimes spouses will not be on board because it's for them, it's scary and may feel threatening and maybe they don't want to look at their own drinking.

at that time. But my advice would be to keep going and to seek out support from community who are on a similar path. And then really work on communicating openly with your spouse as much as you can by sharing your own experience with that person and kind of resisting the urge to give unsolicited advice about this.

their behavior or their use and just talk about what your experiences are on your journey, you know?

Amanda (32:02.422)
Yeah, yeah. I think it's also really valuable to have a conversation in the beginning with your spouse that is just kind of letting them know where you're at and why you're wanting to do what you're doing in a way that feels safe for them and doesn't feel like you're pointing any fingers. It's just, you know, for me, that conversation looked like.

Jane Ballard (32:17.72)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (32:22.434)
Mm-hmm.

Amanda (32:30.21)
I've decided that I need to remove alcohol from my life and I'm going to laying out what I needed to do in order for that to happen and then saying I'm doing this because I want to be the best version of myself for you and the kids, our family.

Jane Ballard (32:45.38)
Right. Yes. Yeah. And that's so true that anyone who is interested in actually meeting their full potential as a human, considering giving up alcohol is key because you cannot reach your full potential if you're ingesting a toxic chemical with any degree of regularity.

You know, it's just, it's just, if it's a habit, if it's a part of your life, once a week, twice a week, it is creating some sort of barrier. So I think that's a really good point that you're, you're not just doing it for yourself, like you're doing it because you want to be the best version of you. For him as his wife and for your kids as their mom and for all the other people that you care about in your life.

Amanda (33:38.358)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the list could go on and on, you know, like the emotional, physical, spiritual, and mental benefits are in lists.

Jane Ballard (33:41.998)
Yeah.

Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. I remember when I decided to quit drinking, you know, I had that kind of epiphany experience on a Monday morning and I didn't talk to anyone about it for several days and then the weekend rolled around and Friday night, our usual tradition of getting Mexican food and margaritas, I was like, I'm not going to drink tonight. He's like, oh, really? Okay. And I was

I'm going to quit drinking. I was like, I don't know what this is going to look like. I don't know if it's forever, but I know right now I feel like this really strong pull to quit drinking. And he's like, okay. And it really, it's funny because he didn't seem to think it was that big of a deal. Maybe he didn't think it would stick. I don't know.

Amanda (34:37.826)
No, I love how supportive he's been of you.

Jane Ballard (34:40.264)
Yeah, he was super supportive and it just kind of went from there. And then, you know, the Bollie thing happened and I was more committed and more open with it, but, um, I just shared with him what I wanted to do. And then he never even told me what his plans were. He just, I just started noticing, wow, he's drinking so much less. What is happening here? And finally I asked him, I was like, what are you doing? He's like, I don't know. I just, you know, if you're not drinking, I don't really need to have a drink. And.

Just see what happens. So I think just, Oh, go ahead. Sorry.

Amanda (35:12.598)
Yeah, that's a testament to.

I was just gonna say that's a testament to like, I think there's so many people out there that don't even necessarily want to drink, but they're just drinking because everybody else is drinking. And I get it, like no judgment on that at all. I think we've all done that probably, been sitting at a dinner table, everybody's having a glass of wine. And so naturally you just have a glass of wine, but if you weren't with those people, you may not even have ordered the wine.

Jane Ballard (35:27.644)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (35:44.316)
Absolutely. Yeah. It's like the take it or leave it mentality. And it's like, well, everyone's doing it. So sure. I'll have, I'll have a glass, you know? Um, but if they're not, then maybe you won't and you won't miss it and you'll feel better the next day.

Amanda (35:57.546)
Yeah, speaking of being at tables with people, we have our Bali retreat coming up where there will be a table full of women that are motivated, empowered, living highly driven, successful lives and are alcohol free. So that is very exciting.

Jane Ballard (36:04.428)
Yes, there were.

Jane Ballard (36:14.06)
Yes, yes. And we have six people who have joined us so far. And each one of those women, I'm so excited. Some of them I've met and know, and some of them I haven't. But I'm so excited about the group. I think it's going to be just an amazing combination of women of different ages, different professional backgrounds, different experiences with alcohol and

Yes, we're going to be doing lots of sitting around tables and eating good food and chatting and connecting. And, and we have some spots left. So I know those other women are out there and I can't wait to see who it's going to be joining us.

Amanda (36:59.19)
Yes, it's gonna be amazing!

Jane Ballard (37:01.508)
Yes. What are some of the activities? So I went to Bali for the first time in April of 2023, and you have been thinking, you almost went last year, but you couldn't because of a health issue, and now you're coming on this retreat on Sobriety Simplified in April of 2024. What are you most looking forward to experiencing?

Amanda (37:14.026)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yep. So, we're going to go ahead and get started.

Amanda (37:24.482)
Um, I am so excited to go to the healing waters, what's considered the holy water. And I just think that is going to be a really beautiful experience. And I think that Bali has the most beautiful spiritual ceremonies in the world. And I'm, I honestly would love to go and just stay there forever. Um, but like I'm.

Jane Ballard (37:30.808)
Yes.

Jane Ballard (37:43.555)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (37:49.54)
Yes, I know. I can see why people do that.

Amanda (37:53.934)
Yeah, I just, the ceremonies, like, I always, of course, get excited about any trip that I take, but this is like so much more than a trip to me, and so much more than even a retreat. Like, it's a spiritual experience, like one great big ceremony, in my opinion. And so I'm just, I'm excited for all of it.

Jane Ballard (38:09.404)
Right. Yes.

Yes, yes. So the water cleansing ceremony, I think is the one you're talking about. And the location for it is this UNESCO World Heritage Site water temple that's been there for hundreds of years. And when we went in, first they kind of tell us a little bit about it and the history behind it. And then you have to go in wearing your sarong and a top with your

And then there's these beautiful offerings, these traditional Balinese offerings. And it's made of like a, a basket, this like kind of shallow basket made of grass. And then there's all these beautiful flowers. They kind of look like different colored orchids. And then people put other things on their offerings. So there were like, you know, coins, money, candy, just different random things that people would put on there to offer.

And so each person has an offering and you go down into the water and you set your offering on this giant boulder that's just covered in these baskets and flowers, and then there's like four or five spots in this body of water. One is a waterfall and you go to the waterfall and you kind of allow the water to rush over your head and face. And you can, you know, say prayers. You can kind of offer words to your higher power.

And then there's several other smaller places of water. And then you kind of go out and you have this experience together. And it's just, it's so moving. And I come from the Christian tradition and something that struck me was just being at a temple. We don't really, we don't have temples here in the United States really. Like we have some Jewish temples and some mosques and.

Jane Ballard (40:07.524)
churches, but it's not like temple life. Life isn't surrounding the temple and this water temple, there was so much activity going on outside of the temple. There were women selling, you know, different homemade, I don't know, necklaces, bracelets, I bought like this woven sweater that was really cool. Um, and then you go in and there's people everywhere and it just, it made me think of times.

that are described in the Bible of temple life and like Jesus getting angry and overturning the money changers tables and the women there, like they're pretty aggressive in their sales tactics. And I'm like, Oh, this is maybe this is what Jesus was talking about, you know? So it's interesting that being in this spiritual place, even though it's a different tradition, I felt like really close and connected with my own tradition.

Amanda (40:50.135)
Yeah.

Jane Ballard (41:05.14)
And it was just such a beautiful deepening experience for me.

Amanda (41:09.974)
Yeah, that is.

definitely one of the gifts of my sobriety is opening my mind to, I think for a long time I had God in this box that was only my faith and what I believed. And so like being open-minded to these new spiritual cultural experiences. And so I just think that is, God is everywhere. You know, he's not, yeah.

Jane Ballard (41:25.302)
Mm-hmm.

Jane Ballard (41:38.236)
God is everywhere, absolutely. And you bring up a really good point about open-mindedness. When we are closed, we tend to look at traditions that are different from our own as threatening, or maybe there's something bad or evil or we're suspicious of them. But if you can let that go and take on an attitude of openness,

Jane Ballard (42:08.496)
curiosity and these fresh eyes, this kind of like humble quality where you want to know more and then you take in this information and you witness this other way of doing things and then you can bring some of that and incorporate it into your own spiritual practices, you know, these other ways of communing with a higher power. And it doesn't mean you're practicing someone else's religion. It's just maybe.

you know, we use water in baptism and they use water in the water temple. Like these things are universally a way, a spiritual tool to connect with a higher power. And it was just such a beautiful life-giving experience.

Amanda (42:53.418)
Yeah, it's like a new opportunity to have childlike eyes and childlike faith. Like that's how I feel about it for sure.

Jane Ballard (42:58.144)
I love, yes. Yes, there is something very childlike about it. You know, like being out of like this place where you have these set beliefs and set way of doing things and this set narrative of what reality is. And if you can step out of that and experience something fresh, it's just, it's very just invigorating and inspiring. Yeah. Yeah, well.

Amanda (43:21.134)
healing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to go ahead and turn it off. I'm going to turn it off.

Jane Ballard (43:27.044)
I'm so excited, we could sit here and talk about volley for another hour. So, um, we'll spare y'all. Well, um, anything else about relationships or, or navigating that, you know, I think it's just a work in progress and everyone's situation is different, but I will say that if you are in a situation that's really complicated or, or creating a lot of distress.

Amanda (43:30.078)
Yes, yes, we could talk about it all day.

Jane Ballard (43:56.852)
If you can access a therapist, having someone that you can speak to individually about your specific situation, that can be so helpful. It can make all the difference. So if people have questions about how to find a therapist or how to use insurance, how to find resources, please feel free to reach out to Amanda or to me and we'd be happy to guide you in that.

Jane Ballard (44:28.716)
All right. Well, until next time, it was good talking to you today.